2020 Aethos Sub UCI weight Specialized.

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Moderator: robbosmans

What defines the rumoured UCI Illegal Specialized

Doesn't Exist
75
24%
More aero than the Venge
39
12%
Lighter than the Tarmac SL6
139
44%
More aero than the Venge AND lighter than the Tarmac SL6
36
11%
Not sure
27
9%
 
Total votes: 316

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:25 pm
I have not heard of anyone calling the Aethos a noodle, so I don't think it will be problematic in this regard.
I however highly doubt you will perceive this as an upgrade (at least in terms of speed).
If you were to save 1kg compared to your system six (of course there is potential for more than that), that's like 0.9% of the system weight saved.
On a 10% climb, this saves you around 3/4 of a percent. So 3 watts for 400 Watts of power.
Everywhere else, the Aethos is certainly slower than the System Six.
If you are saying fast group rides, that's definitely aero bike territory.
If it's comport you're after, there is likely still a better (more aero) alternative.
I always like your posts and I love your bike, and I know them - I also had an Emonda and we both have an Aethos - so don't take this personally, but I think on this forum we should try and always add a bit more context. I think in another thread I've read somebody saying that, after one single ride on their SL7, they saw it was "noticeably faster" than their old S3, and I'm like :roll:
I feel like we are feeding the industry of "this frame is now 13.79 seconds faster over 40km at 50km/h" which is fine, but reading this board as of late, it seems as though every amateur must pick their bike based on wind tunnel results.


Is the Aethos 'certainly slower' than the SystemSix? Yep. Is it 'noticeably slower'? That's.. debatable.

I don't want to dismiss the idea that there are indeed gains from the frame alone. And I agree, the Aethos is absolutely not an upgrade over the SystemSix, not at all. But if you (yourself) were to show up to a fast training ride with the Aethos in full 'race mode' as opposed as your 'fondo mode', would you really struggle? I'm not sure. All of this to say, that maybe our friend wanted a 'comfort' upgrade, who knows.

Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe I just want to feel good about owning an Aethos. :lol:

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

All cool, and your comment is completely valid.
I love light bikes, and I love bikes that are great to ride.
I am not at all saying the Aethos is a bad bike (I love riding mine). On a non competive group ride, the differences will likely not matter at all.
I just wanted to inform about the gains and "losses" to be had.
There are many marginal gains, and aero is oftentimes seen as just one of many.
Out of all the marginal gains (training, tactics, nutrition, rest all being non-marginal), I'd deem weight among the most marginal, and aero among the least marginal.

As I wanted to point out, a kg of weight saved, especially as a heavier rider, will never be noticeable, likely not be measurable (in terms of performance).
One of the fastest aero bikes on the market (given the stock aero wheels) is measured around 30 to 40 watts than a non-aero bike (like an Aethos with round bars, shallow wheels) by Tour mag.
That's at 45kph, which is some 400-450W of power. So maybe 6 to 10% aero savings (Call that 5 to 9% of total savings on the flat).
At a more reasonable power of 300W, that's still 15W or more. I find that noticeable, and definitely feel, and measure a difference between Aethos and SL7. Considering the SystemSix is supposedly even more aerodynamic than the SL7, I just wanted to call "Beware" when expecting the Aethos to feel like an upgrade over the Sy6.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

RockC
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:49 pm

by RockC

Curious if anyone has any experience with trying to fit a Fizik Adaptive Saddle (10x7 rail) to an alpinest seatpost? Is it possible? Would like to upgrade to a carbon rail saddle on my wife's aethos.

kode54
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

Why wouldn’t the 10x7 rails fit on Alpinist seatpost? The cradle is not size/thickness dependent.
- Factor Ostro VAM Disc
- Factor LS Disc
- Specialized Aethos Disc
- Sturdy Ti Allroad Disc
- Guru Praemio R Disc

justonwo
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 9:16 pm

by justonwo

RockC wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 9:51 pm
Curious if anyone has any experience with trying to fit a Fizik Adaptive Saddle (10x7 rail) to an alpinest seatpost? Is it possible? Would like to upgrade to a carbon rail saddle on my wife's aethos.
Yes, I have the Fizik Antares versus EVO 00. I love the saddle. The name is ridiculous.

Image
2020 Pinarello Dogma F12 AXS Red (Enve SES 3.4 Disc, Zipp 353)
2021 S-Works Aethos Di2 9200 (Alpinist CLX II)
2006 Cervelo Soloist
2021 S-Works Epic

Retired: 2014 S-Works Roubaix
2020 S-Works Roubaix
2020 Canyon Ultimate
2018 S-Works Camber

AgMar
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:47 pm

by AgMar

Got the Fizik Antares Versus Evo R1 Adaptive and it fits on my Alpinist seatpost fine

RockC
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:49 pm

by RockC

With all this talk on aero sacrifices w/ the Aethos relative to more pure breed race bikes, I'd be curious how much of that gap is closed with a simple wheelset and handlebar change? For example, what is the watt difference between an SL7 and an Aethos w/ a Rapide handlebar and wheelset? Is it fair to say that the majority of aero games come from those two components?

maquisard
Posts: 3772
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 8:51 pm
Location: France

by maquisard

Indeed, or even taking into other factors such as rider position, clothing and helmet.

An Aethos that fits well to a rider who is conscious of aero-position will be much faster than an SL7 with some one who riders with elbows out and has poor awareness of aero dynmaic influcing factors.

The amount of A that a frame contributes to overall system CdA is very small, and yes there are other aero 'tools' on framesets that can tidy up the flow over a frameset but an aero frameset is not the major factor in going fast. I would spend money on good clothing, helmet and wheels first.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Well, an Aethos is just a cost ineffective and un-aerodynamic starting point.
Tour tested the SL7 at 210W (this is at 45kph, a pedaling dummy, but with no upper body).
Slower un-Aero bikes usually score 233-245W.
So a 20 to 35 ish difference at this very high speed, when position is equal.
Likely half at solo ride speed (35kph).
SL7 and Aethos have the same geometry, so the same position should be achievable.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:18 am
Well, an Aethos is just a cost ineffective and un-aerodynamic starting point.
Tour tested the SL7 at 210W (this is at 45kph, a pedaling dummy, but with no upper body).
Slower un-Aero bikes usually score 233-245W.
So a 20 to 35 ish difference at this very high speed, when position is equal.
Likely half at solo ride speed (35kph).
SL7 and Aethos have the same geometry, so the same position should be achievable.
My only complaint about that "math" is that it's always compared with head-on, no draft. As obviously have to be otherwise it loses interest. BUT... I do amateur grandfondos. I'm not even on the 5wkg ftp mark. What I always see is that I get dropped on the climbs. So, if I ride 99% of the time in the draft of a group, will the aero-penalty of an aethos vs an sl7 (same body position) be that significant when drafting? That's my whole point. My races are all about that smallish 5-10min climb where I lose the group. If I get a way (getting stronger of course is the way!) to NOT get dropped on that climb, I can the remain with them. It will still not make me win, for that I need the leg power. I just want to remain with the group till close to the end of the race :mrgreen:

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

pmprego wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:48 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:18 am
Well, an Aethos is just a cost ineffective and un-aerodynamic starting point.
Tour tested the SL7 at 210W (this is at 45kph, a pedaling dummy, but with no upper body).
Slower un-Aero bikes usually score 233-245W.
So a 20 to 35 ish difference at this very high speed, when position is equal.
Likely half at solo ride speed (35kph).
SL7 and Aethos have the same geometry, so the same position should be achievable.
My only complaint about that "math" is that it's always compared with head-on, no draft. As obviously have to be otherwise it loses interest. BUT... I do amateur grandfondos. I'm not even on the 5wkg ftp mark. What I always see is that I get dropped on the climbs. So, if I ride 99% of the time in the draft of a group, will the aero-penalty of an aethos vs an sl7 (same body position) be that significant when drafting? That's my whole point. My races are all about that smallish 5-10min climb where I lose the group. If I get a way (getting stronger of course is the way!) to NOT get dropped on that climb, I can the remain with them. It will still not make me win, for that I need the leg power. I just want to remain with the group till close to the end of the race :mrgreen:
The weight difference between SL7 and Aethos with the same parts is so small that it will not make any difference on a climb.

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

pmprego wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:48 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:18 am
Well, an Aethos is just a cost ineffective and un-aerodynamic starting point.
Tour tested the SL7 at 210W (this is at 45kph, a pedaling dummy, but with no upper body).
Slower un-Aero bikes usually score 233-245W.
So a 20 to 35 ish difference at this very high speed, when position is equal.
Likely half at solo ride speed (35kph).
SL7 and Aethos have the same geometry, so the same position should be achievable.
My only complaint about that "math" is that it's always compared with head-on, no draft. As obviously have to be otherwise it loses interest. BUT... I do amateur grandfondos. I'm not even on the 5wkg ftp mark. What I always see is that I get dropped on the climbs. So, if I ride 99% of the time in the draft of a group, will the aero-penalty of an aethos vs an sl7 (same body position) be that significant when drafting? That's my whole point. My races are all about that smallish 5-10min climb where I lose the group. If I get a way (getting stronger of course is the way!) to NOT get dropped on that climb, I can the remain with them. It will still not make me win, for that I need the leg power. I just want to remain with the group till close to the end of the race :mrgreen:
In real life, gains can be meaningful mostly for TT's (which you wouldn't do on your road bike) or breakaways (where you may or may not be solo, and especially if solo, you are unlikely to be breaking away for like 40k), in which case an aero frame might well be what gives you those precious few seconds to win.

I can see why some people would pick an aero frame over an Aethos, but it's unlikely to make a meaningful difference in the real world - but still, it might. What's worse is that I see people picking aero frame B over aero frame A because "B tested 3w faster" which is borderline ridiculous.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

Choosing a frame because it tested 3W faster is not one bit more ridiculous than choosing a frame because it is 200g lighter (which is what we're talking about here).

200g lighter bike, will save a 70kg system (that's a 61kg rider on an Aethos) around 0.2% (200/70,000 * drivetrain efficiency (0.98) * share of power used to overcome gravity (0.85) - rolling resistance (maybe another 2%)) of power when going up a monster steep climb (we are talking Zoncolan).
0.2% will equate to 3W saved at around 1500W of power.
Yeah, it feels snappier and especially feels lighter when you lift a bare frame. But once you have a person sitting on it, that wears shoes and clothes, a helmet, has a few spares, and a bottle with water + a bike compute etc
200g is absolutely nothing.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Yes, 200gr is nothing and that's the difference between sl7 and aethos (more like 300gr because it's not just the frame but also fork and seatpost) for the rest of the same components. But then... For the rest of the same components the drag difference is not that large also. If one outs the rapide handlebar and wheelset on the aethos, it also becomes more aero.

What I'm saying is that put this same component list with the difference only the frame behind another wheel as there is absolutely no difference in terms of drag. But when the climb comes, there is only the 300gr difference which is still NOT the reason I'm being dropped (it's all about the legs).

In the end, I know the sl7 looks nicer (in my eyes) and the aethos is easier to live with (given its not fully hidden cables and more standard components - the round seatpost basically).

But I'm fully aware that if I know I'm going against the wind, aero will always win.

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:17 pm
Choosing a frame because it tested 3W faster is not one bit more ridiculous than choosing a frame because it is 200g lighter (which is what we're talking about here).

200g lighter bike, will save a 70kg system (that's a 61kg rider on an Aethos) around 0.2% (200/70,000 * drivetrain efficiency (0.98) * share of power used to overcome gravity (0.85) - rolling resistance (maybe another 2%)) of power when going up a monster steep climb (we are talking Zoncolan).
0.2% will equate to 3W saved at around 1500W of power.
Yeah, it feels snappier and especially feels lighter when you lift a bare frame. But once you have a person sitting on it, that wears shoes and clothes, a helmet, has a few spares, and a bottle with water + a bike compute etc
200g is absolutely nothing.
Thing is, most people choose a lighter bike because they have a "WW disease", it's a challenge to get it to a certain weight. A good chunk of people don't do it to save time, they do it cause making a bike lighter is a hobby in and as of itself.

I don't even know what my Aethos weigh to be honest. Just like I didn't know what my Emonda weighed, or my SL6.

I have 36cm bars, I tend to ride in a sphinx position for long periods of time, I have the fastest everyday tyres (GP5000S), relatively tight clothing, aero helmet and relatively deep wheels. I might get an aero frame in the future, but I won't be picking one or the other based on a couple watts at 45km with a half mannequin in a wind tunnel.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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