My adventures in chain waxing: goals, reviews, suggestions...

[joshatsilca]

And my bet is that 1:10 PTFE:wax by weight (as recommended by Oz and his disciple musiclover) is worse than plain paraffin. Would you support that assumption?

I have no idea how 1:10 PTFE would be as I've not tested it and have really not done anything in years with PTFE. I will say that every additive we've tested (over 200 particle types, sizes, morphologies, etc.) and in every case there is a % load where you start to do more harm than good, so it isn't as simple as just 'more is better'

I'll also add that the while we use WS2 nanoparticles in our hot melt, that alone doesn't get us to 4x better than MSW as reported by ZFC.. there are some other secrets in there that help the wax adhere to the chain surface better and stuff like that.

bluebottle81: SuperSecret Wax is our drip wax product similar to UFO Drip, our hot wax is called SecretBlend Hot Wax.

[bobones]

And my bet is that 1:10 PTFE:wax by weight (as recommended by Oz and his disciple musiclover) is worse than plain paraffin. Would you support that assumption?

In Oz's comments in his most recent wax recipe video, he states that plain paraffin alone is much less durable than a 1:10 PTFE mix and requires much more frequent rewaxing (he says 100km vs 300km), so it's not just about friction.

I am new to this waxing lark, but I am keen to learn. I am currently using Oz's 1:10 formula, but I will probably try the Silca Secret Chain Blend for my next batch as the published test results for both efficiency and longevity are second to none, and it's not all that expensive in absolute terms when you factor in the number of chains you can treat with it. (Would be nice to have some proper test comparisons against Oz's formula).

Nevertheless, my experiences with Oz's blend so far are very promising. In my Crockpot, the PTFE powder blended into the wax with no caking or clumping, and the mixed "solution" has a smooth, milky appearence when molten. My top up bottle made from wax shavings and isopropyl alcochol has remained as a milky solution without lumps or clumps after initial heating and shaking when cool, although I have yet to use it on a chain.

I have prepped 4 bikes and they're all now running with waxed chains and I have a few other chains ready for rotation:
Bike 1: Aero bike - Red AXS Chain - 258 mi / 412.8 km on first wax with no top ups. Mostly dry rides, but caught in some light showers. Drive train is still quiet, clean and smooth.
Bike 2: Winter bike - Force AXS Chain - 63 mi / 100 km on first wax, no top ups. Wet and very wet rides, wiped down with microfibre towel post ride. Still quiet, clean, smooth and no rust. This will be the big test over the next few months.
Bike 3: Steel bike - KMC EL 11 Gold Chain - 45 mi / 72 km. Only one ride so far, but gold chain absolutely gleaming and drive train looks and sounds great! Occasional use bike.
Bike 4: Light bike - KMC EL 11 Silver - 0 miles. Just put the chain on last night, but too wet to ride this one today. This will probably end up on smart trainer over winter.

I am really sold on the cleanliness and the promises of increased drive train component life (especially given the cost of AXS and Red 22 cassettes!), and I am really hoping I can make wax work for me over a typical wet Scottish winter/autumm/spring.

[TobinHatesYou]

In Oz's comments in his most recent wax recipe video, he states that plain paraffin alone is much less durable than a 1:10 PTFE mix and requires much more frequent rewaxing (he says 100km vs 300km), so it's not just about friction.

I am new to this waxing lark, but I am keen to learn. I am currently using Oz's 1:10 formula, but I will probably try the Silca Secret Chain Blend for my next batch as the published test results for both efficiency and longevity are second to none, and it's not all that expensive in absolute terms when you factor in the number of chains you can treat with it. (Would be nice to have some proper test comparisons against Oz's formula).

Nevertheless, my experiences with Oz's blend so far are very promising. In my Crockpot, the PTFE powder blended into the wax with no caking or clumping, and the mixed "solution" has a smooth, milky appearence when molten. My top up bottle made from wax shavings and isopropyl alcochol has remained as a milky solution without lumps or clumps after initial heating and shaking when cool, although I have yet to use it on a chain.

I have prepped 4 bikes and they're all now running with waxed chains and I have a few other chains ready for rotation:
Bike 1: Aero bike - Red AXS Chain - 258 mi / 412.8 km on first wax with no top ups. Mostly dry rides, but caught in some light showers. Drive train is still quiet, clean and smooth.
Bike 2: Winter bike - Force AXS Chain - 63 mi / 100 km on first wax, no top ups. Wet and very wet rides, wiped down with microfibre towel post ride. Still quiet, clean, smooth and no rust. This will be the big test over the next few months.
Bike 3: Steel bike - KMC EL 11 Gold Chain - 45 mi / 72 km. Only one ride so far, but gold chain absolutely gleaming and drive train looks and sounds great! Occasional use bike.
Bike 4: Light bike - KMC EL 11 Silver - 0 miles. Just put the chain on last night, but too wet to ride this one today. This will probably end up on smart trainer over winter.

I am really sold on the cleanliness and the promises of increased drive train component life (especially given the cost of AXS and Red 22 cassettes!), and I am really hoping I can make wax work for me over a typical wet Scottish winter/autumm/spring.

If Oz really said that, then I say don't be such a noob and don't be so gullible. I swap my plain paraffin waxed chains out weekly, and for me that means 500km of riding. If you're new to waxing, then how about paying attention to someone else who has been using plain wax for many years?

I already explained why his chain seemed to exhibit less elongation. When he measured his PTFE loaded chain there were almost certainly clumps of PTFE stuck in between the rollers/pins/plate-shoulders. That acts as a gap filler and the chain will appear to have less elongation when really it's just other media taking up the space.

You say you have no clumping in your wax, but you aren't thinking on the right scale. We're talking microns here and clumped PTFE can be a few microns. It's extremely obvious that there are clumps of PTFE on Oz's own cleaned chains.

[darrydonds]

I already explained why his chain seemed to exhibit less elongation. When he measured his PTFE loaded chain there were almost certainly clumps of PTFE stuck in between the rollers/pins/plate-shoulders. That acts as a gap filler and the chain will appear to have less elongation when really it's just other media taking up the space.

This is very plausible. This post includes similar hypothesis (on paraffin-waxed chain):

"Note that the measured wear drops slightly after switching to paraffin, my best guess is that the wax fills some of the space between the roller and pin, effectively reducing measured stretch."

So the proper method is to measure wear rate, like this person did; and not just do one measure of elongation and use that as a basis of comparison.

In Oz's comments in his most recent wax recipe video, he states that plain paraffin alone is much less durable than a 1:10 PTFE mix and requires much more frequent rewaxing (he says 100km vs 300km), so it's not just about friction.

100km seems rather suspicious to me. Maybe Oz' riding conditions are an outlier because many people using paraffin-only wax said they experience much higher mileage.

[TobinHatesYou]

100km is about where my freshly waxed chains are nicely broken in. Heh.

[usr]

I already explained why his chain seemed to exhibit less elongation. When he measured his PTFE loaded chain there were almost certainly clumps of PTFE stuck in between the rollers/pins/plate-shoulders. That acts as a gap filler and the chain will appear to have less elongation when really it's just other media taking up the space.

But would that be so bad? Obviously you'd want to measure elongation between riding and treatment and not between treatment and riding, but if you'd somehow substituted some of the metal with unicorn sweat or whatever in a sufficiently lasting way I'd call that success, not failure.

[TobinHatesYou]

But would that be so bad? Obviously you'd want to measure elongation between riding and treatment and not between treatment and riding, but if you'd somehow substituted some of the metal with unicorn sweat or whatever in a sufficiently lasting way I'd call that success, not failure.

Because the clumps are causing uneven surface contact / loads instead of just filling/polishing the microscopic scratches in the metal. The PTFE clumps will unevenly score the rollers/pins/plate-shoulders and increase the static friction between sliding components.

[MikeD]

I always measure my chain before cleaning and relubing, as I don't want to waste my time on a worn out chain. Any small amount of lube that is remaining in the chain has no effect on the elongation measurement.

[TobinHatesYou]

I always measure my chain before cleaning and relubing, as I don't want to waste my time on a worn out chain. Any small amount of lube that is remaining in the chain has no effect on the elongation measurement.

This is pretty false with solid lubes like wax or a ridiculous amount of clumped solid powder as in Oz's PTFE usage. Even pouring boiling water over a waxed chain doesn't get all the wax out from inside the rollers, just the contaminated exterior.

If you don't believe me, do the following:

1) Wax dip your chain.
2) Ride 300mi/500km
3) Remove your chain, thread it over a swisher tool or bunch it up.
4) Pour half a kettle's worth of boiling water over one side, flip the chain and repeat with the rest of the boiling water.
5) Let the chain cool back to ambient.
6) Try to articulate the chain.
7) It will feel stiff because there's still lots of solid wax that has melted and "reset" taking up space in between the rollers.

[pdlpsher1]

I always take my chain wear measurement after the waxed chain has been ridden 250-300 miles. Even then I feel like the measurement isn't accurate because there's still solid wax taking up the tolerances. To get the most accurate measurement one has to strip the wax completely. With oil based drip lube I never had such a problem. Yeah, taking a measurement on a freshly waxed chain will likely show zero chain wear even on a badly worn chain!

Does anyone know if Friction Facts and ZFC take measurements only on a fully cleaned chain? And also OZ Cycling.

[musiclover]

1. Once your submerge your chain into the hot paraffin it will replace the old stuff and 'clean and lubricate at the same time'. The only issue with that is if you have lots of crap in the chain it will contaminate your good paraffin, thus the boiling water.

1. a. There are ways to melt and remove paraffin altogether with some degreasers to reset the chain to stage 0. However, there is no point. Besides, it may interfere with the next waxing.

2. It does not matter what the 'real' wear of the chain is, the cassette would not know if it is real or 'fixed' with paraffin.

3. 1.5 micron does not clump. There is no indication of clumping on Steve's photos. If it was (inside the rollers), it does not mean that it will exagerate chain wear. All speculations based on nothing.

[darrydonds]

100km is about where my freshly waxed chains are nicely broken in. Heh.

If I recall, before using PTFE, Oz was using paraffin oil as additive. Paraffin wax+paraffin oil combo can't possibly add significantly more mileage. So how could Oz get by with only ~100km/waxing before his "PTFE breakthrough"? I'd say his 100km claim is BS.

[pdlpsher1]

2. It does not matter what the 'real' wear of the chain is, the cassette would not know if it is real or 'fixed' with paraffin.

I agree it's a good thing that the wax fills in the tolerances. However the 'real' wear does matter in a lab test if one is trying to find the best wax formula that minimizes chain wear.

[TobinHatesYou]

I agree it's a good thing that the wax fills in the tolerances. However the 'real' wear does matter in a lab test if one is trying to find the best wax formula that minimizes chain wear.

And additional wear is clearly from static friction = efficiency lost.

[basilic]

If there is still wax in the roller spaces after 3-400 km, it means that metal isn't grating against metal, with sand as abrasive. Isn't that the reason why waxed chains don't stretch? It't not a bug, it's the feature