Orbea Gets Roasted By A Five-year Old.

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
hambini
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am
Location: Cologne, Germany

by hambini

@mattsurf

BB86 is a Shimano standard,

Canyon, Tifosi, etc etc can't adhere to that.

It's not an aerospace standard, it's a bike standard.

Hambini
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Polluting YouTube since 2016 - views expressed are my own...
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Aerodynamic Masterclass in bicycle wheels
I fixed the bottom bracket from hell

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

hambini is amusing.. I only have to mute the beginning :) otherwise it's all good. The highlight is always my favorite powerpoint.

by Weenie


AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

mattsurf wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:25 pm
There are 2 fundamental reasons for this, where do the best engineers go? do the top university grads go into the cycling industry, or do they go to aerospace, automotive or high tech? Ultimately cycling does not attract the best (although I am sure that there are exceptions

The second issue is even more fundamental, cycling companies are first and foremost marketing organisations. Engineering excellence is not in their DNA.

I don't even think it's the lack of engineering talent. It doesn't take a degree from MIT to specify the bore diameter for a carbon fiber bottom bracket shell in CAD.

The problem is the level of manufacturing and QA. For the most part, the bicycle industry settles for "good enough". They pump out the product as cheaply as they can and then deal with any problems after the fact.

The flip side is that the frames might cost twice as much or more to do a significantly better job.

icantaffordcycling
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

I need to figure out where to buy one of those princess blankets.

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kgt
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Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

What AJS914 said (except the last sentence which is not necessarily true)
Last edited by kgt on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

icantaffordcycling
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsZW9wqfDEE

Que the time/look circlejerk that thinks that poor manufacturing tolerances in those frames are tenous.

Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

C36 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:11 pm
First, those frames shouldn’t get out of the factory.
Exactly this. What kind of business would allow a product so far out of spec to get to market? These companies are literally ripping off their customers who buy a frame that may work well for a couple of weeks, and then causes nothing but bottom bracket grief requiring excessive maintenance and expensive half solutions that will never quite make it right. BB shells/bearing seats must be round, parallel, and in perfect alignment. And yet many are not - intolerable and unforgiveable.

While some may find profanity unprofessional, no amount of nasty things that Hambini says about these companies is adequate, they deserve an even more savage treatment for their disregard for their customers.

Without Hambini and others like him, we consumers would be even worse off. He deserves all of our support regardless of what we think of his communication style. He is a true consumer advocate and serves an important role in this industry. In time his efforts may contribute greatly to these crap manufacturers either getting their heads out of their asses or going out of business - desireable outcomes for us all.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

fizzaz
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:02 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

by fizzaz

C36 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:11 pm
First, those frames shouldn’t get out of the factory...
This, but more importantly this:
...the frame replacement should be”no question asked”.
I don't expect the bike industry to be able afford or spend the time to reach all of the aerospace industry's standards. A lot of times the tolerances are loose and they are hoping for the best, I get it. But in the case that something doesn't work out for the consumer, it's time for them to eat that cost and just do it.

mustafah009
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 pm

by mustafah009

In which manufacturers can we trust besides Look and Time?
Are the Italian brands any good?
In a market for a new bike so this would be the ideal time to get this info.


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icantaffordcycling
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

mustafah009 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:18 pm
In which manufacturers can we trust besides Look and Time?
I don't know why there is this gravitation to look. From second-hand experiences, their frames are not all perfect either and getting them to warranty defective frames with poor manufacturing tolerances is a pain in the ass. Listen to the first 5 minutes of the youtube video I linked above.

We should just accept that carbon bicycle frames are built poorly and go with brands that warranty exceptionally defective frames. Bicycles are not planes or spaceships, don't expect aerospace-grade consistency. I am not saying that we should be content with poorly manufactured frames but expecting exceptionally consistent carbon coming from bicycle manufacturers is ridiculous.

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Colnago seems to make high quality stuff and their BB cups are a great solution when it comes to having a perfectly aligned bottom bracket shell. Most complaints we've seen on the board are with minor paint flaw finishes because, you know, people expect perfection when they buy a $4000+ frame. And the downside is dealing with an Italian company if you do have a warranty issue. Once you get into that kind of money, I really like Sarto for Italian.

At least if you live in the US, a Specialized or Trek dealer is probably easy to deal with and the frames have lifetime warranties. Some Treks are even coming with T47 threaded BBs now.

You can also look at it by way of how easy would it be to fit a Hambini type BB into a certain type of frame since that cures most ills. In that video linked above, he was saying that a 386 EVO BB is usually the easiest to correct any problems on. I think I've heard good things about Giant's manufacturing and their bikes seem to be a good bang for the buck when compared to other big manufacturers.
Last edited by AJS914 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bilwit
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Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:28 pm
We should just accept that carbon bicycle frames are built poorly and go with brands that warranty exceptionally defective frames. Bicycles are not planes or spaceships, don't expect aerospace-grade consistency. I am not saying that we should be content with poorly manufactured frames but expecting exceptionally consistent carbon coming from bicycle manufacturers is ridiculous.
We already show the industry that we're perfectly content spending several thousands of hard working money on poorly manufactured carbon frames. No harm is being done by having one guy on Youtube pointing out how absurd the whole ordeal is (with a certain foul-mouthed flavor mixed in for entertainment purposes).

AJS914
Posts: 3871
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

The manufacturers have pushed it on to the bike shops to come up with creak free bottom brackets. And shops can usually do it 99.5% of the time. Sometimes, they just need to use the right assembly technique (retaining compound) or sometimes a 3rd party solution (praxis, hambini, etc). Consumers get caught out when their bike is out of warranty or they buy second hand and/or their LBS can't figure out a solution.

icantaffordcycling
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

bilwit wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:41 pm
We already show the industry that we're perfectly content spending several thousands of hard working money on poorly manufactured carbon frames. No harm is being done by having one guy on Youtube pointing out how absurd the whole ordeal is (with a certain foul-mouthed flavor mixed in for entertainment purposes).
My point was that expecting anything else is ridiculous.

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C36
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by C36

mattsurf wrote: The second issue is even more fundamental, cycling companies are first and foremost marketing organisations. Engineering excellence is not in their DNA.
We, the customers, killed the ones driven by engineering, accepting what we shouldn’t have.

10 years ago I worked with 2 wheels manufacturers, one way ahead in terms of engineering and understanding what performance is made of... the one technically behind gained strong market share % for the high-$ based on marketing push on media’s and a sort of hype created around their wheels... hub reliability and lacing stability were a disaster. Pros were breaking wheels at industrial rates, nevertheless... they gain high revenue market share.


by Weenie


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