Orbea Gets Roasted By A Five-year Old.

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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golty
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:55 pm

by golty

oh haha does look quite young

dolophonic
Posts: 711
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:43 am
Location: The 'Dena

by dolophonic

@PSM dont play tht card .. he did not use race as a disqualifier .. you introduced it to the chat .. bad move.

@maccpres I have a cheap SRAM gpx bb that is still smooth after 20k kms .. :noidea:

i dont really care much for all the cussing, also did not get why he says he is Franch when he sounds like he is from the UK

i am amazed how much people pay for ceramic speed etc.. but people seem very happy with Hambini's product.

by Weenie


robertbb
Posts: 1347
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

dolophonic wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:31 pm


i dont really care much for all the cussing, also did not get why he says he is Franch when he sounds like he is from the UK

In the UK (and Australia) when we cuss we say "Excuse the French"...

It's an old Commonwealth inside joke :smartass:

davidalone
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:27 pm

by davidalone

mrlobber wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:18 am
kgt wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am
but the thing is that even one frame having really bad tolerances (like a BB shell that goes all over the place) proves the poor QC of its manufacturer.
No, it does not.
Agree, it does not.
ONE frame having a defect does not mean a lack of quality control. Statistically , even large companies making thousands of products a day can produce errors or defective products that are 'missed' QC, even in the most stringent of industries (medical, aerospace). this does not mean a lack of quality control. A company that lacks a clear defined, functioning process to mitigate errors/defects during manufacturing (called QA, or quality assurance) and lacks clear functioning process for identifying and recitfying defects (called quality control) can be collectively then be said to have poor Quality Assurance and Poor Quality Control, and hence Poor Quality Management. You can look all this up in ISO 9001 industry standard practices.

I work in the medical industry, so I can give you an example from here. Say your company makes condoms. Thousands of condoms are made daily. If you have clearly defined and documented manufacturing practices that your staff are trained in and practice that you are assured produce good, consistent condoms, daily, regardless of who is working on the manufacturing line, then you have an element of good QA. Now, condoms are tested for holes post manufacture using an electric field around a mandrel. A random sampling of extra condoms is subject to extra tests. Condoms that fail are deemed not fit for purpose and discarded. This displays quality control. This test is very, very accurate, but it is not impossible for defective condoms to pass this test. Maybe, 1 in 1 million condoms might slip through QC (just a random number.)

If you happened to have that 1 defective condom, would you say that the manufacturer has no Quality control? of course not. Part of quality control is also 'continual improvement' - the manufacturer must have processes in place to rectify problems in their devices (e.g. warranties, recalls- particularly in medical devices.). but just ONE defective product does not mean the manufacturer has no quality control.

Let's get back to bikes. If, for example you took 100 bikes and a large percentage of them had tolerances all over the place - that indicates there is an inconsistency in their manufacturing practice and quality assurance is insufficient. That DOES NOT MEAN they fail QC. if the tolerance is OUTSIDE of the limit as stated in the design as identified- then they should fail QC. if, then , a large number of these bikes that should fail QC actually pass and make it out to the market, or, you have no means of recitifying/recalling defective products, then that indicates that QC is insiffucient.

There is no arbitrary cutoff for 'sufficient' or insufficient' QC. obviously, you want as few defective products to slip through QC as much as possible- this bar is really high for medical and aerospace industries, and to a lesser extent O&G/shipping - and varies according to industry to industry and the stated aims of the manufacturer during their quality audit. But just because you had ONE defective product slipping through QC doesn't mean you have bad QC. World class companies have defective products slipping through QC as well - just less often.

Let me say up front that quality management is non-trivial and not easy. To reach and mantain the level of QA/QC in medical/aerospace industries is simply outside the reach of many bike companies, and it's unrealistic to expect otherwise. Giant, possibly. Shimano, yes. I'm not sure very many others would be able to.

bilwit
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

davidalone wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:18 am
mrlobber wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:18 am
kgt wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am
but the thing is that even one frame having really bad tolerances (like a BB shell that goes all over the place) proves the poor QC of its manufacturer.
No, it does not.
Agree, it does not.
ONE frame having a defect does not mean a lack of quality control...
In some of these cases, he's looked at the actual frame specification diagrams (I think it was Cannondale) and the tolerances are stated there plain to see--tolerances with inexcusable wide ranges that can cause issues despite "being in spec". That's not about finding one defect out of several thousand, that's an inherent design flaw across ALL of the product with clear intent on saving money with cheap manufacturing, some ending up more egregious than others.

thePrince
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am

by thePrince

davidalone wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:18 am
mrlobber wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:18 am
kgt wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:53 am
but the thing is that even one frame having really bad tolerances (like a BB shell that goes all over the place) proves the poor QC of its manufacturer.
No, it does not.
Agree, it does not.

Let me say up front that quality management is non-trivial and not easy. To reach and mantain the level of QA/QC in medical/aerospace industries is simply outside the reach of many bike companies, and it's unrealistic to expect otherwise. Giant, possibly. Shimano, yes. I'm not sure very many others would be able to.
This comment is exactly why we need people like Hambini. Someone willing call to BS. You are convinced shimano is quality, because they want you to think so. But the reality is they have some serious quality and moral issues. Look at their Ultegra/DA cranksets. Shimano won't ever admit a problem yet there is obviously a catastrophic failure issue putting people in danger. Meanwhile SRAM/Zipp issue recalls or take care of customers for much much less. They care about YOU. Shimano cares about pride/$$$.

So you will continue to think Shimano is top quality because THEY want you to. Which is exactly why Hambini exists, to call these companies out for their BS and label them SHITE. I settle for SRAM's 95% shift quality compared to Shimano knowing SRAM is willing to admit dangerous engineering issues rather than Shimano who is burrying their head in the sand.

But yeah, go ahead and be critical of someone who is honest and critical. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

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BikeEatSleepRepeat
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:13 am

by BikeEatSleepRepeat

PSM wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:43 pm
I think we have a racist here.
Ummmm, no.

No we don't.

spdntrxi
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I think this thread has reached the end of it's usefulness...

Nefarious86
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
Contact:

by Nefarious86

spdntrxi wrote:I think this thread has reached the end of it's usefulness...
Agreed.

Pull your heads in or its holiday time.

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