2020 Road Shoes

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Karvalo
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:17 am
I was bucketing them in the same category because in my mind they fulfill largely the same role. Breathable thin, flexible uppers.
Have you actually tried on an Exos shoe and a knit shoe? The feel and behaviour of the two uppers are completely different. The materials have nothing in common. To be perfectly honest I don't even know where you get the idea that knitted uppers are thin.
Knits would seem a logical place to try to do that to me at least.
Ok, but why is that a logical point of view? Ballista knits are heavier than Ballistas. Empire knits are heavier than Empires. Infinito R1 knits are the same weight as Infinito R1s. If knit is a logical way to make a lightweight shoe then why aren't these ones lighter?

Further, there are a fair few ultra-light shoes out there now - Exos, Prolight, Cosmic SL... if knit is a logical way to make a superlight shoe then why are none of them knitted?

by Weenie


Kazyole
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: NYC

by Kazyole

I've tried on the Exos recently, and the knit infinitos a while ago. I understand they are different materials. My point was simply that I believe them to have similar use cases. A buyer looking at a knit shoe wants a summer shoe with a flexible upper. To me the Exos also live in that category, even though they're not exactly the same thing. Granted, at generally about double the price, but also at around half the weight. And at ~$2.27/g, they're a lot cheaper of a weight upgrade than a lot of what we do to our actual bikes.

Knits would seem like a logical place to try to push weight for me because of their similar use case. I get that they haven't been featherweight so far. But that doesn't mean that with some changes in materials, they couldn't be lighter. You don't have to agree and I don't expect this conversation is really going anywhere. But if I were Rapha and I were developing a summer shoe, I'd see the exos as a potential competitor to my product and would probably not want to release a product at more than double their weight.

I would have thought there would be more of an industry focus on shaving weight from footwear in general after those LTD 99g exos lace ups, but I guess I must be in the minority valuing weight in cycling shoes. Which I generally find to be odd, since that's an area where weight is totally unregulated in racing.

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:37 am
spdntrxi wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:26 am
Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:17 am
Karvalo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:24 am

I'm not really sure where you've got that from. Weight has not been a selling point of knit shoes from anyone. Take your Infinitos as example of exactly like for like versions - the knit is claimed at the exact same 232g weight as the standard microtex. Knit isn't lighter, it's airier, more breathable and more formable.

BTW, seems like you might be under the impression that Exos are knit shoes - they aren't.

I was bucketing them in the same category because in my mind they fulfill largely the same role. Breathable thin, flexible uppers.

I guess I just fail to see the point of knit shoes if they're not trying to be lighter than a standard road shoe. But I guess I've never had an issue with breathability and don't live in a climate where that's something I'd prioritize. Just expressing a general dissatisfaction that other brands aren't pushing weight the same way specialized have been doing with the exos. Knits would seem a logical place to try to do that to me at least. Shoes are heavy (relatively speaking). If I want breathable, money notwithstanding why wouldn't I also get the option that's 220g lighter for the pair.
my giro prolight techlaces are going on 2+ years and are sub 180g.. ok exos are lighter but it's 2 years later too.
How are the techlaces holding up 2+ years on? They're an option I've considered but I was worried about longevity of the retention system.
the rentention is fine, the 2 issues for me are :

1) the heel plate comes off, I finally just JB weld mine on.
2) the exterior is fragile so if you have toe overlap like I do, it will show fast.

Sockman
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm

by Sockman

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:43 am
Image

I wanna see what these look like in white. Is any team riding giro shoes this year?
Anyone have any more info on these? Have a couple pies of the original S-phyre and will be buying new shoes before summer! These look the part!

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

Doubt they are coming out this year. The old version was recently updated with a track/crit version. I think the S3 boas are still specialized proprietary for now.

Karvalo
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm
I've tried on the Exos recently, and the knit infinitos a while ago. I understand they are different materials. My point was simply that I believe them to have similar use cases. A buyer looking at a knit shoe wants a summer shoe with a flexible upper. To me the Exos also live in that category, even though they're not exactly the same thing. ...

Knits would seem like a logical place to try to push weight for me because of their similar use case.
Sure, that's fine as it goes and makes perfect sense. But it's also completely irrelevant if the knit material isn't conducive to making strong enough uppers that are any lighter than standard microtex. And it appears that it isn't. The Exos and other shoes are light because they're made of light stuff. The knit isn't.

Kazyole
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: NYC

by Kazyole

Karvalo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:15 pm
Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm
I've tried on the Exos recently, and the knit infinitos a while ago. I understand they are different materials. My point was simply that I believe them to have similar use cases. A buyer looking at a knit shoe wants a summer shoe with a flexible upper. To me the Exos also live in that category, even though they're not exactly the same thing. ...

Knits would seem like a logical place to try to push weight for me because of their similar use case.
Sure, that's fine as it goes and makes perfect sense. But it's also completely irrelevant if the knit material isn't conducive to making strong enough uppers that are any lighter than standard microtex. And it appears that it isn't. The Exos and other shoes are light because they're made of light stuff. The knit isn't.
Dyneema (The exos upper material) can apparently be woven into all kinds of fabrics, including knits

https://www.dsm.com/products/dyneema/en ... abric.html

I'd be curious to see if the material sees more use in cycling in the coming years. Also the same material that Darimo uses in their loop seat clamp

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chorus88
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Toronto

by chorus88

Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:54 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:15 pm
Kazyole wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm
I've tried on the Exos recently, and the knit infinitos a while ago. I understand they are different materials. My point was simply that I believe them to have similar use cases. A buyer looking at a knit shoe wants a summer shoe with a flexible upper. To me the Exos also live in that category, even though they're not exactly the same thing. ...

Knits would seem like a logical place to try to push weight for me because of their similar use case.
Sure, that's fine as it goes and makes perfect sense. But it's also completely irrelevant if the knit material isn't conducive to making strong enough uppers that are any lighter than standard microtex. And it appears that it isn't. The Exos and other shoes are light because they're made of light stuff. The knit isn't.
Dyneema (The exos upper material) can apparently be woven into all kinds of fabrics, including knits

https://www.dsm.com/products/dyneema/en ... abric.html

I'd be curious to see if the material sees more use in cycling in the coming years. Also the same material that Darimo uses in their loop seat clamp
I thought the dyneema fabric would be more tear resistance.
jaybian_leather instagram (VIDEO: Exos repair) :thumbup:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5R4mpqnQrN/
Attachments
Untitled-exo.jpg
When Technology Becomes Emotion

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Only the gray parts of the upper are Dyneema. The white toebox is made out of plain old nylon.

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chorus88
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Toronto

by chorus88

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:12 pm
Only the gray parts of the upper are Dyneema. The white toebox is made out of plain old nylon.
Durability isn't the main design criteria for this shoe. :smartass:
150 grams is hard to ignore.
When Technology Becomes Emotion

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

Pretty easy when you realize that the new empire slx pair is not disposable and cheaper. Although doesnt use a boa dial. 185g but lighter insoles are available.

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guyc
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by guyc

chorus88 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:12 pm
Only the gray parts of the upper are Dyneema. The white toebox is made out of plain old nylon.
Durability isn't the main design criteria for this shoe. :smartass:
150 grams is hard to ignore.
The price, not so much.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

chorus88 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:12 pm
Only the gray parts of the upper are Dyneema. The white toebox is made out of plain old nylon.
Durability isn't the main design criteria for this shoe. :smartass:
150 grams is hard to ignore.

Sure, but you're making a statement about Dyneema's durability, then linking a video of not-Dyneema being torn. What was the point of that?

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chorus88
Posts: 185
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Location: Toronto

by chorus88

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:40 am
chorus88 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:12 pm
Only the gray parts of the upper are Dyneema. The white toebox is made out of plain old nylon.
Durability isn't the main design criteria for this shoe. :smartass:
150 grams is hard to ignore.

Sure, but you're making a statement about Dyneema's durability, then linking a video of not-Dyneema being torn. What was the point of that?
The primary design criteria for Exos is weight.
Durability is secondary.
150 grams per shoe is very light to ignore.
The video/picture of the torn Exos shoe is for repairability purpose. :smartass:
When Technology Becomes Emotion

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

And yet the very first line you typed was:
I thought the dyneema fabric would be more tear resistance.
I was pointing out that Dyneema didn't even tear in this example, but you keep doing you.

by Weenie


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