to tubeless or not to tubeless, that is the question

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
MikeD
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

AJS914 wrote:Were you low on sealant? It seems like a thorn hole should seal.
No, as evidenced by the puddle on my garage floor. 50 degrees in my garage. 50 psi tire pressure. Maybe too cold for orange seal endurance to work well. Maybe I didn't shake the bottle enough before putting it in. I put some fresh sealant in and it sealed though.


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IrrelevantD
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: Near DFW Airport

by IrrelevantD

MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:35 pm
Are plugs only for larger holes? I had a thorn puncture that wouldn't seal. Tried a plug, but the hole was too small. I figured if I forced it in, I'd make the hole bigger, thus degrading the tire by ripping a larger hole in it. Didn't think that was wise. I think plugs are over rated. Most punctures I get are from thorns.
If it's big enough to have trouble sealing up in, it's big enough for a plug. I put a plug in anything that doesn't seal up in 10-15 seconds. At that point, you've probably already lost a lot of sealant if it's comming out the puncture. A good plug will keep it air tight even without sealant. Also, the barb type plugs, like Dynaplug or Stan's Dart are going to be much easier than the forked ones like what Genuine Inovations sells.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

by Weenie


MikeD
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

IrrelevantD wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:35 pm
Are plugs only for larger holes? I had a thorn puncture that wouldn't seal. Tried a plug, but the hole was too small. I figured if I forced it in, I'd make the hole bigger, thus degrading the tire by ripping a larger hole in it. Didn't think that was wise. I think plugs are over rated. Most punctures I get are from thorns.
If it's big enough to have trouble sealing up in, it's big enough for a plug. I put a plug in anything that doesn't seal up in 10-15 seconds. At that point, you've probably already lost a lot of sealant if it's comming out the puncture. A good plug will keep it air tight even without sealant. Also, the barb type plugs, like Dynaplug or Stan's Dart are going to be much easier than the forked ones like what Genuine Inovations sells.
Would have been a waste of a plug. Goat head thorn. Should have sealed. Not interested in enlarging a small hole in an almost new $50 tire either. Was using Genuine Innovations though. Would have had to use a lot of force to jam it in.


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IrrelevantD
Posts: 751
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:47 pm
Location: Near DFW Airport

by IrrelevantD

MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:38 pm
IrrelevantD wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:35 pm
Are plugs only for larger holes? I had a thorn puncture that wouldn't seal. Tried a plug, but the hole was too small. I figured if I forced it in, I'd make the hole bigger, thus degrading the tire by ripping a larger hole in it. Didn't think that was wise. I think plugs are over rated. Most punctures I get are from thorns.
If it's big enough to have trouble sealing up in, it's big enough for a plug. I put a plug in anything that doesn't seal up in 10-15 seconds. At that point, you've probably already lost a lot of sealant if it's comming out the puncture. A good plug will keep it air tight even without sealant. Also, the barb type plugs, like Dynaplug or Stan's Dart are going to be much easier than the forked ones like what Genuine Inovations sells.
Would have been a waste of a plug. Goat head thorn. Should have sealed. Not interested in enlarging a small hole in an almost new $50 tire either. Was using Genuine Innovations though. Would have had to use a lot of force to jam it in.


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Yea, I have the GI one as well and am not a fan, if it catches a thread from the casing or something it's a pain in the ass. I've been meaning to track down the Stan's one, but I haven't had to plug a tire in probably 9 months so it hasn't been on my mind much. Plugs are cheap and I've put plugs in weeks old Pro One's and left them until the tires were worn down to the casing. I keep a mini Swiss Army Knife with siscors in my seat roll to trim the plug about 3~4mm outside the tire and just leave it there forever. I understand not wanting to have to plug a brand new tire, but I'd rather that than a completely deflated tire with no sealant and a walk or having to call for a ride.
* There is a 70% chance that what you have just read has a peppering of cynicism or sarcasm and generally should not be taken seriously.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out the other 30%. If you are in any way offended, that's on you.

AJS914
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

It seems strange that the sealant wouldn't plug a tiny goat head thorn. I've literally had dozens and dozens of goat head punctures that all sealed instantly on my gravel tires. What sealant is this?

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

IrrelevantD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:16 am
The key is good sealant. My personal preference is Stan's Race
I think you're on to something there with the use of higher viscosity sealant for higher pressures, although it would require more attention...like tubeless in general.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 5725
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I’ve never had problems with goatheads. They create nearly perfectly round, tiny punctures. They release the tiniest little drop of sealant and seal instantly. Using Orange Seal of course.

MikeD
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

AJS914 wrote:It seems strange that the sealant wouldn't plug a tiny goat head thorn. I've literally had dozens and dozens of goat head punctures that all sealed instantly on my gravel tires. What sealant is this?
Orange Seal Endurance. I've had good luck with this sealant in the past. I'm thinking low temperature combined with high pressure. Had it squirt on my other bike too w/ 80 psi. Eventually it sealed, progressing to a slow leak to an eventual plug. And yes, I put the hole at the 6 o'clock position. Maybe I need to let out most of the air to give the sealant a better chance of working. Maybe I didn't shake the bottle enough before injecting it in the tire. Problem is, OS foams up when shaken vigorously so it's hard to gage how much you are putting in your tire.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 5725
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:11 pm
AJS914 wrote:It seems strange that the sealant wouldn't plug a tiny goat head thorn. I've literally had dozens and dozens of goat head punctures that all sealed instantly on my gravel tires. What sealant is this?
Orange Seal Endurance. I've had good luck with this sealant in the past. I'm thinking low temperature combined with high pressure. Had it squirt on my other bike too w/ 80 psi. Eventually it sealed, progressing to a slow leak to an eventual plug. And yes, I put the hole at the 6 o'clock position. Maybe I need to let out most of the air to give the sealant a better chance of working. Maybe I didn't shake the bottle enough before injecting it in the tire. Problem is, OS foams up when shaken vigorously so it's hard to gage how much you are putting in your tire.

I run my 25mm tires between 75-85psi depending on conditions. Orange Seal regular. Don't need to shake the bottle too hard because Orange Seal's "glitter" doesn't really get stuck at the bottom of the bottle like some other sealants. Just flip the bottle end over and a couple times. Also I weigh my sealant in tiny Dixie cups, but you can just weigh it in the syringe as well. I imagine your hypothesis is correct and you are injecting lower volumes of sealant than optimal because of the foaming.

Orange Seal Endurance should only be used by those who live in very hot and arid climates.

MikeD
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

TobinHatesYou wrote:
MikeD wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:11 pm
AJS914 wrote:It seems strange that the sealant wouldn't plug a tiny goat head thorn. I've literally had dozens and dozens of goat head punctures that all sealed instantly on my gravel tires. What sealant is this?
Orange Seal Endurance. I've had good luck with this sealant in the past. I'm thinking low temperature combined with high pressure. Had it squirt on my other bike too w/ 80 psi. Eventually it sealed, progressing to a slow leak to an eventual plug. And yes, I put the hole at the 6 o'clock position. Maybe I need to let out most of the air to give the sealant a better chance of working. Maybe I didn't shake the bottle enough before injecting it in the tire. Problem is, OS foams up when shaken vigorously so it's hard to gage how much you are putting in your tire.

I run my 25mm tires between 75-85psi depending on conditions. Orange Seal regular. Don't need to shake the bottle too hard because Orange Seal's "glitter" doesn't really get stuck at the bottom of the bottle like some other sealants. Just flip the bottle end over and a couple times. Also I weigh my sealant in tiny Dixie cups, but you can just weigh it in the syringe as well. I imagine your hypothesis is correct and you are injecting lower volumes of sealant than optimal because of the foaming.

Orange Seal Endurance should only be used by those who live in very hot and arid climates.
It gets average 90 degrees here in the summer and I have 4 bikes with tubeless tires. Bikes are stored in a hot garage. I figure if the Endurance formula lasts longer, I'm saving a lot of maintenance time, maybe money too. Jan Heine claims you have to shake the stuff "vigorously for a minute."


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AJS914
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I could understand wanting to use Endurance for longevity but according to their chart it is worse performing in every category except longevity.

MikeD
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

AJS914 wrote:I could understand wanting to use Endurance for longevity but according to their chart it is worse performing in every category except longevity.
I'm going to try shaking the bottle up like JH says to, and weighing it like Tobin says before I go back to the regular formula. It may have been too thin because I didn't shake the bottle enough. I know I didn't shake it much to keep it from foaming.


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wintershade
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

ColnagoJohn wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:07 pm
Hi guys, ive been running bora 50's on gp5000 clinchers this season and ive really liked the ride of them, best clincher tyres ive ever had.
For next year ive got bora wto 45 which of course are capable of going tubeless, question is do i bother making the leap? its for every day riding but also road racing too. IF i go for gp5000tl tyres but dont like tubeless, can i just put inner tubes into these tyres?
any thoughts appreciated
Why don't you just give it a try and decide for yourself? It's not like it's some kind of irreversible decision like circumcision or something. When you're due for new tires, buy the GP5K in TL variant, but a $25 set of tubeless valve stems and sealant, stick some bacon strips in your saddle bag, and you're good to go. If you like it, great. If you don't, switch back when you need your next set of tires or just chuck them. Worst case it was a fun $125 experiment. Best case you're a convert.

AJS914
Posts: 4130
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I just switched to GP5000TL tires because my Farsport rims were tubeless. I have been getting a flat every 3K miles (GP4000) so flat prevention wasn't a huge issue.

One thing I've noticed is that the GP5000TL seems damn fast. It's worth about 18 watts in rolling resistance and aero optimization benefits (narrower than the GP4000) at 30km/hr. It's worth even more at greater speeds (30+ watts at full pop). It's a significant upgrade.

by Weenie


Nautiboy
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:54 am

by Nautiboy

wintershade wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:21 am
ColnagoJohn wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:07 pm
Hi guys, ive been running bora 50's on gp5000 clinchers this season and ive really liked the ride of them, best clincher tyres ive ever had.
For next year ive got bora wto 45 which of course are capable of going tubeless, question is do i bother making the leap? its for every day riding but also road racing too. IF i go for gp5000tl tyres but dont like tubeless, can i just put inner tubes into these tyres?
any thoughts appreciated
Why don't you just give it a try and decide for yourself? It's not like it's some kind of irreversible decision like circumcision or something. When you're due for new tires, buy the GP5K in TL variant, but a $25 set of tubeless valve stems and sealant, stick some bacon strips in your saddle bag, and you're good to go. If you like it, great. If you don't, switch back when you need your next set of tires or just chuck them. Worst case it was a fun $125 experiment. Best case you're a convert.
Hi John, I second wintershade's view on self-discovery and self-learning, which is part of the fun in cycling!!
But to provide more insights (can't beat Dim's sharing - it was splendid sharing), I've started with TL trial in 2013 with Shimano DuraAce C24 tubeless wheelset and Schwalbe PRO 1 23C tubeless tires. Didn't like it then, too time-consuming, messy and can't really feel any difference in puncture resistance or ride comfort.

2012 - 2015 Mostly on Highend Tubular tires
2015 - 2018 Switch back to Clinchers for the lower running costs and ease of tire replacement
2018 - 2019 Clincher with either Latex or Tubolito tubes
Mid 2019 onwards - GP5000TL 25C Tubeless setup with WTO45 (which is what you are going for) and next will be Schwalbe PRO One TT . . .

The 1st ride experience with the GP5K TL on the WTO is simply amazing, the ride comfort is so apparent right from the get-go, puncture resistance untested yet, but I really like the feel and speed of the bike compared to whatever I've rode with before....it even surpassed Michelin Competition Clincher with Vittoria Latex tubes (that was the best combo I ever had for comfort and speed). Only rode it 3 times (as I have a few bikes) and bike was hung up awaiting for new parts to mod it further.

I think you are going to like it.....Give it a shot.......

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