Shimano XTR CN-M9100 chain on 9100 series Dura Ace

[Mocs123]

Thanks for the clarification

[pdlpsher1]

Hello
I've installed my XTR 12s chain on my DA9100 group, but problem
The internal size of chain seems not to bee good, I explain: on the top pulley of the read derailleur, the chain is according to me not large enough, The chain can not be release easily when I ride.
No problem with DA9100 chain.
According to me, the internal size beetween to face of the chain is not large enough. Maybe a bad serie of profuction???

Can someone take mesure of a XTR 12 chain? I need internal size.

Thanks

I didn't notice this issue back in August. But just this week I'm seeing the same issue with the bike on the bike stand. When pedaling forward or backward I can hear and see the chain getting stuck on the upper pulley. This is on a waxed chain. The issue is that the chain is still not getting a clean release from the upper pulley. A secondary problem is the extra friction this causes. You can definitely feel the extra friction when pedaling backwards with the bike on the bike stand. When Shimano switched to the 'Shadow' RD design they also enlarged the the teeth profile on the upper pulley. I suspect the taller teeth is getting caught in the narrower 12-speed chain, specifically on the inner links. I also noticed that Shimano has changed the upper and lower pulley profiles once again with the new 12-speed RD. See the attached pic. below. The new upper pulley (on the right is 9250, on the left is 9150) has slightly chamfered and shorter teeth. The lower pulley now has taller teeth. I wish to run the new 12-speed upper pulley with my 12-speed chain but it would be impossible to obtain them at the moment. I have some spare pre-Shadow pulleys for the 9070 which have the shorter teeth. See the pic. below, with the shorter teeth pulley for the 9070 on the left. I replaced the upper pulley with the 9070 pulley and it seemed to shift fine on the bike stand. The noise is totally gone, as well as the extra friction you feel when pedaling backwards. I will be testing this new setup tomorrow with a long climbing ride. I'll report back with my findings in regards to noise and shifting quality.

[Maddie]

I tried the older upper 9070 pulley on my rd9150 and 12s xtr chain but went quickly back to the 9150 pulley. While it was a dead silent setup with the 9070 pulley, the shifting in the small cogs was very slow. Sometimes it didn't even make the jump to 11t when shifting from 12t. I adjusted the b-screw a tiny bit since the pulley was smaller but it didn't help. Shifting quality is unmatched with 9150 pulleys. But it is a tiny bit louder than 9070.

But what about 12s upper xtr pulley? Anyone ever tried this?

[pdlpsher1]

Thanks for the feedback on the pulley. Unfortunately the 12-speed MTB pulleys won't work. They have 13 teeth vs. 11 teeth.

I don't want bad shifting from the 9070 pulley. OTOH I don't like the extra friction caused by the larger pulley. I wonder if the larger pulley might work better if I just grind away some extra materials.

Strangely I have two bikes with 12-speed chains and they each behave differently. The bike with a brand new 12-speed chain seems to be affected by this problem more. The bike with a used 12-speed chain only has this problem when the chain is freshly waxed. After a bit of riding on the freshly waxed chain the extra friction goes away. Both bikes have new pulley wheels. Perhaps this problem is magnified on a brand new chain.

[andy4g63]

Ha, I see a lot of pulleys talks... Just wanted to post something about J&L RD pulleys...Or OSPW for that matter.

These areade from Delrin plastic, have a narrow/wide profile teeth and come with some lower grade hybrid ceramic bearings./see pic/

Yesterday I installed the pulleys and almost immediately ran into a problem.
Upon initial testing they roll in the chain fine in both directions./BECAUSE THEIR TEETH ARE DIRECTIONAL/
After installing the wheel the chain was jumping from the pulley in both directions.

I didn't realized that I had the teeth in the wrong direction and thought they are too wide.
So I grinded the wide party of the teeth and installed them again.

Had to adjust the B screw,
Both H&L limit on the RD with my chain being too short...

After that got on the trainer.

Man I totally recommend these pulleys, not because of the ceramic bearings,but the REAL improvement in shifting.Before that was perfect, now it even better.
Shifting is snappy and noticably faster in both directions, more on the downshift.

Summary... The work great with XTR chain, but I had to grind them. Shifting is superb. This is on Etap 11 sp RD, with very,very short chain.

There is a probability that they might have worked without grinding them by simply install them in the right direction, but unsure of that.

Also the same pulleys seem to be too wide for AXS flattop chain, after grind they were ok.

So at the end not sure if direction was the issue.
I ve seen a Pulley thread on here and people had them backwards, but with regular 11 sp. Chain.
That works fine.
I also had them on Ultegra 8000 Rd and they worked fine without grinding.

P.S. In the photo the teeth on both pulleys are in

the RIGHT direction.

[pdlpsher1]

First ride using the small upper pulley completed. Shifting is spot on and zero issues. I will keep it until I get my hands on the 12-speed group. So this is only a short-term solution. I will also change out the pulley on my other bike which is also running a 12-speed chain. YMMV.

Not sure if this issue is only pertaining to waxed chains or not.

[pdlpsher1]

Bike #2 with the small pulley doesn't work! Here's a summary of my findings. I'm going back to 11-speed chains on bike #2 for now since I won't tolerate the extra friction. Perhaps the 12-speed chain isn't for everyone and every bike, unless one is able to get their hands on the 12-speed mid-sized pulleys.

Bike #1 (Ultegra GS RD): shifting is perfect with either the small or large pulley. Extra friction with the large pulley when back-pedaling with the bike on the bike stand).
Bike #2 (XTR SGS RD): shifting is perfect with the large pulley but with extra friction. Slow (or none at all) shifting on the smaller cogs with the small pulley.

I have a bike #3 with GRX and 11-speed chain, but for now it will remain that way since the chains (2) for that bike are still fairly new,

[ooo]

pdlpsher1, Bike #2 - is it 3x11? anyone tried 3x FD with 12-speed shimano chain?

[kode54]

I've had several J&L pulleys, both regular and oversized. Problem with these pulleys were poor bearings on all. Over time, since they are pressed in...become loose and there's tons of side play. I've swapped them out for steel bearings and that helped with the bearing play, since the actual Delrin wheels are good for what it is.

And yes, there is a directional pattern to installation.

Ha, I see a lot of pulleys talks... Just wanted to post something about J&L RD pulleys...Or OSPW for that matter.

These areade from Delrin plastic, have a narrow/wide profile teeth and come with some lower grade hybrid ceramic bearings./see pic/

Yesterday I installed the pulleys and almost immediately ran into a problem.
Upon initial testing they roll in the chain fine in both directions./BECAUSE THEIR TEETH ARE DIRECTIONAL/
After installing the wheel the chain was jumping from the pulley in both directions.

I didn't realized that I had the teeth in the wrong direction and thought they are too wide.
So I grinded the wide party of the teeth and installed them again.

Had to adjust the B screw,
Both H&L limit on the RD with my chain being too short...

After that got on the trainer.

Man I totally recommend these pulleys, not because of the ceramic bearings,but the REAL improvement in shifting.Before that was perfect, now it even better.
Shifting is snappy and noticably faster in both directions, more on the downshift.

Summary... The work great with XTR chain, but I had to grind them. Shifting is superb. This is on Etap 11 sp RD, with very,very short chain.

There is a probability that they might have worked without grinding them by simply install them in the right direction, but unsure of that.

Also the same pulleys seem to be too wide for AXS flattop chain, after grind they were ok.

So at the end not sure if direction was the issue.
I ve seen a Pulley thread on here and people had them backwards, but with regular 11 sp. Chain.
That works fine.
I also had them on Ultegra 8000 Rd and they worked fine without grinding.

P.S. In the photo the teeth on both pulleys are in Screenshot_20211030-074515.jpgthe RIGHT direction.

[pdlpsher1]

pdlpsher1, Bike #2 - is it 3x11? anyone tried 3x FD with 12-speed shimano chain?

No. It's a 2x11.

I have an update. After 200 miles on bike #1 with the small pulley, I'm getting some hesitation from the 12T to 13T. The hesitation is only from the 12T to 13T. I'm running a custom cassette (12/34) and the 12T is the smallest cog. On the bike stand I adjusted the B screw slightly to raise the upper pulley. I also adjusted the Di2 rear derailleur one click further inboard. The bike shifted fine on the bike stand with those two adjustments. However I decided to forgo the smaller pulley and modify the larger pulley by making the teeth a bit narrower. Below is a comparison of the modification. On the left is a stock large pulley. The middle is a modified pulley. On the right is the previous-generation pulley that I ran for 200 miles. I did a 2.5 hr. long ride today with the modified pulley and everything shifted beautifully. No hesitation on any gear changes. This is with the Di2 single click (inboard) and B screw adjustments done. It's likely that it'll also work with the small pulley with those two adjustments done. But I just thought I try out a modified pulley. So in summary....

1) Switching to the 12-speed chain might cause some extra friction with the larger pulley especially if you wax your chains
2) If you switch from the large to small pulley you may have to adjust the shifting trim and B screw since the smaller upper pulley doesn't grab the chain as firmly as the larger and taller upper pulley.
3) Alternatively one may elect to modify the larger pulley if he wishes to reduce friction and have perfect shifting.

[Erwin]

Superb infos here at WW again. I use 12spd M9100 with Ceramicspeed OSPW at 3 bikes without problems. But the aluminium pulleys are narrow. At the lightest bike without OSPW and standard 9100 pulleys I will try to grind off some material from the J&L pulleys I still haven't used with success.

[TheOnlyAaron]

I've had several J&L pulleys, both regular and oversized. Problem with these pulleys were poor bearings on all. Over time, since they are pressed in...become loose and there's tons of side play. I've swapped them out for steel bearings and that helped with the bearing play, since the actual Delrin wheels are good for what it is.

And yes, there is a directional pattern to installation.

Sorry for highjacking this thread.
Just wondering what bearing did you replace them with?

Thank you.

[edchristoph]

Finally after tinkering with the Rotor Qarbon oval ring, I gave up...

No matter how I set the FD and limit screws, shifting was extremely poor.

I even switched back to 11 sp. Dura ace chain to no avail...

Then I said f#*k it and installed Absolute Black oval 50 / 36 combo.

That's what I had...

Adjusted the FD, limit screws according to ÀB, on the High limit little bit more out than usual to help shifting from small to big and VOILA...

This thing works spectacular and this with Etap 11 sp. FD, Shimano dura ace rear cassette and Dura ace/Xtrm9100 12 speed chain...

I have a WickWerks dual chain catcher, just in case, but no need for it...

And this is with Sram Red ETAP FD, which a lot of people had problems with.

As I said, shifting isn't just good is spectacular...

Small to big, Big to small, no problems at all fast and noise free.

Before I had a lot of hesitation with Rotor oval even when shifting big to small, it looked like the chain simply don't wanna go because of these extended inner link plates on the 12 speed chain...

When I shift big to small, or small to big, I compensate by hand by keeping my finger on downshift paddle when shift small to big/ or on the upshift when I shift big to small and this is simultaneously and shifting is superb...

Super super happy.
As I mentioned this is Sram Red ETAP 11 sp. with AB 50/36 ovals, Dura ace 9100 cassette,/I also changed the cassette recently with Sram 1170-11/32 and still works great and super quiet.

Might be because of smaller difference 14 teeth, instead of usual 16 on front rings, I don't know.

But all is great.

I keep my chain very clean and I use Silva's super secret lube, that thing is superb...

P.S. Anyone know where to get Wipermann/Connect 12 speed reusable guick link?
Thanks.

Cheers

I just ran into a similar problem with Rotor Aero Qrings vs Non-Aero Qrings. For quite some time my drivetrain was built out of DA9150 FD and RD with XTR 12 speed chain on a SRAM XG-1190 casette and Rotor 2inpower cranks with 52/36 Non-Aero Qrings. The chain is waxed with MSW. Shifting performance of this mixed drivetrain was superb, absolutley flawless.

Looking for a lighter powermeter/crank option I switched to the brand new Rotor ALDHU carbon cranks and P2M NGEco light version which comes in at 620g for PM/crank vs 780g for the 2inpower crank both with the same Rotor 52/36 Non-Aero Qrings. So essentially I just switched the PM/crank while keeping everything else equal. As I kept the chainline to Shimano's spec of 43,5mm, shifting performance with the new crank was equally superb.

The problems started when I wanted to exchange the outer 52t Non-Aero Qring with a 52t Aero Qring (I like their looks when combined with a spider based PM):

Just by exchanging the Non-Aero Qring with the Aero Qring, the 12 speed XTR chain refused to shift from small to big chainring!

I thoroughly checked the FD adjustment, but I couldn't get it dialled to work reliably with the Aero Qrings. Interestingly, I could get it to work when the bike was on the stand but as soon as I was riding it, thereby putting some load on the cranks/chainrings, nothing could persuade the chain to shift up from small to big chainring.

I also tried the advise given earlier in this thread to adjust the FD top adjustment bolt beyond shimano's spec of 0.5-1mm clearance between the chain and the chain guide outer plate in big/small to be rather 1.5-2mm thus enabling the FD to push out the narrower 12 speed chain that extra bit to move it up to the big ring. I also adjusted the DI2 trim for big/big and small/big but there was not setting to get it reliably shifting up from small to big over the entire cassette. When setting it to work from the upper half of the cassette it regularly threw the chain off over the big ring when in the lower half of the casette. Vice versa, when setting it to reliably work from the lower half of the cassette it refused to shift up to the big ring when in the upper half of the casette.

Switching back to the Non-Aero Qring immediately fixed the problem!

Not sure what to conclude here, but all my experiments tell me that the Rotor Aero Qrings don't work very well with the 12s XTR chain while the Non-Aero-Qrings are flawless. My only explanation so far is, that the climbing aids/grooves machined into the inner side of the Aero Qrings are different from those in the Non-Aero Qrings and thus not compatible with the narrower 12s chain. I am going to test with a 11s DA chain to see if that does the trick (at the expense of a somewaht noisier drivertrain)...

Curious to hear any alternative suggestions!

[edchristoph]

Finally after tinkering with the Rotor Qarbon oval ring, I gave up...

No matter how I set the FD and limit screws, shifting was extremely poor.

I even switched back to 11 sp. Dura ace chain to no avail...

Then I said f#*k it and installed Absolute Black oval 50 / 36 combo.

That's what I had...

Adjusted the FD, limit screws according to ÀB, on the High limit little bit more out than usual to help shifting from small to big and VOILA...

This thing works spectacular and this with Etap 11 sp. FD, Shimano dura ace rear cassette and Dura ace/Xtrm9100 12 speed chain...

I have a WickWerks dual chain catcher, just in case, but no need for it...

And this is with Sram Red ETAP FD, which a lot of people had problems with.

As I said, shifting isn't just good is spectacular...

Small to big, Big to small, no problems at all fast and noise free.

Before I had a lot of hesitation with Rotor oval even when shifting big to small, it looked like the chain simply don't wanna go because of these extended inner link plates on the 12 speed chain...

When I shift big to small, or small to big, I compensate by hand by keeping my finger on downshift paddle when shift small to big/ or on the upshift when I shift big to small and this is simultaneously and shifting is superb...

Super super happy.
As I mentioned this is Sram Red ETAP 11 sp. with AB 50/36 ovals, Dura ace 9100 cassette,/I also changed the cassette recently with Sram 1170-11/32 and still works great and super quiet.

Might be because of smaller difference 14 teeth, instead of usual 16 on front rings, I don't know.

But all is great.

I keep my chain very clean and I use Silva's super secret lube, that thing is superb...

P.S. Anyone know where to get Wipermann/Connect 12 speed reusable guick link?
Thanks.

Cheers

I just ran into a similar problem with Rotor Aero Qrings vs Non-Aero Qrings. For quite some time my drivetrain was built out of DA9150 FD and RD with XTR 12 speed chain on a SRAM XG-1190 casette and Rotor 2inpower cranks with 52/36 Non-Aero Qrings. The chain is waxed with MSW. Shifting performance of this mixed drivetrain was superb, absolutley flawless.

Looking for a lighter powermeter/crank option I switched to the brand new Rotor ALDHU carbon cranks and P2M NGEco light version which comes in at 620g for PM/crank vs 780g for the 2inpower crank both with the same Rotor 52/36 Non-Aero Qrings. So essentially I just switched the PM/crank while keeping everything else equal. As I kept the chainline to Shimano's spec of 43,5mm, shifting performance with the new crank was equally superb.

The problems started when I wanted to exchange the outer 52t Non-Aero Qring with a 52t Aero Qring (I like their looks when combined with a spider based PM):

Just by exchanging the Non-Aero Qring with the Aero Qring, the 12 speed XTR chain refused to shift from small to big chainring!

I thoroughly checked the FD adjustment, but I couldn't get it dialled to work reliably with the Aero Qrings. Interestingly, I could get it to work when the bike was on the stand but as soon as I was riding it, thereby putting some load on the cranks/chainrings, nothing could persuade the chain to shift up from small to big chainring.

I also tried the advise given earlier in this thread to adjust the FD top adjustment bolt beyond shimano's spec of 0.5-1mm clearance between the chain and the chain guide outer plate in big/small to be rather 1.5-2mm thus enabling the FD to push out the narrower 12 speed chain that extra bit to move it up to the big ring. I also adjusted the DI2 trim for big/big and small/big but there was not setting to get it reliably shifting up from small to big over the entire cassette. When setting it to work from the upper half of the cassette it regularly threw the chain off over the big ring when in the lower half of the casette. Vice versa, when setting it to reliably work from the lower half of the cassette it refused to shift up to the big ring when in the upper half of the casette.

Switching back to the Non-Aero Qring immediately fixed the problem!

Not sure what to conclude here, but all my experiments tell me that the Rotor Aero Qrings don't work very well with the 12s XTR chain while the Non-Aero-Qrings are flawless. My only explanation so far is, that the climbing aids/grooves machined into the inner side of the Aero Qrings are different from those in the Non-Aero Qrings and thus not compatible with the narrower 12s chain. I am going to test with a 11s DA chain to see if that does the trick (at the expense of a somewaht noisier drivertrain)...

Curious to hear any alternative suggestions!

Quick update: The 11s DA chain fixed the problem. It is slighly noisier than the 12s XTR chain, but only when heavily crosschaining. I guess, for now, I am back on the 11s DA chain since I am keen on keeping the Aero-Qring.

[kode54]

I've had several J&L pulleys, both regular and oversized. Problem with these pulleys were poor bearings on all. Over time, since they are pressed in...become loose and there's tons of side play. I've swapped them out for steel bearings and that helped with the bearing play, since the actual Delrin wheels are good for what it is.

And yes, there is a directional pattern to installation.

Sorry for highjacking this thread.
Just wondering what bearing did you replace them with?

Thank you.

I have to take a look. But even the least expensive steel ones worked well and pressed into the J&L Delrin pulleys. I’ll get back once I find out the number/model of the bearings.