Wilier to Colnago C64 upgrade

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
bikeboy1tr
Posts: 633
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

I think the frame looks good and I know I could get on that bike and ride np as I am 183cm and riding the V2R in 54s. The setup I have is very close to what yours is. At the moment I am considering changing the bar stem from 120 to 110 as I am getting some soreness in the rear of my neck and I know its from reach. My seat nose is 90mm behind the BB and my knees say Do Not Move the seat ahead anyfurther. So at any rate these are factors that need to be considered when trying to decide one size bigger or one smaller. A buddy is lending me his 110 stem so that I can comfirm this is the solution and then at least I know the seat can go back on the rails somewhat if its a little cramped and I know my knees will be okay with this. I am scoping out a THM Tibia stem if 110 is what I need.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2012 Time RXRS Ulteam Rim Brake
2008 Time VXR Rim Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

by Weenie


reedplayer
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 am

by reedplayer

hmmm, the 54s has a 175mm-headtube, which imo is little bit long for 182cm/standard body-poportions. 175mm corresponds with a cannondale super six evo in 58.

i personally would choose the smaller frame in such borderline cases. the handling is better, and i see no problem in using 2 or eventually 3 spacers.

ok, the settings of the clx in 52s look like frame-one-size-to-small, but all other bikes (the c59 and the willier) look really consistent to me.

But thats just me, if the owner feels well on the 54s, everything is perfect!

gorkypl
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:31 am
Location: Poland

by gorkypl

The 175mm headtube is indeed longer than usually, but OP is fitted in a way that this HT length is adequate for him.
I believe he might have no need/will to get very low.
Last edited by gorkypl on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

c60rider
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

The one that always sticks out in my mind to determine which size to go for is to go with the smallest frame you can get your position set up on. From measuring myself I was unsure of the 52s or 50s on my C60 and I went with the 52s but in hindsight I should have gone with the 50s to get a bit lower on the front. But I can just bend my elbows a tiny bit and that's sorted and otherwise it still looks and fits fine. The dealer was recommending a 54s or maybe even a 56!! :roll: But they had the same frame as mine delivered that they were building up for someone and they put it on their facebook page. What an eyesore with about half as much seatpost showing as you'd expect. So just take your time and if you're in between sizes, like I was and probably like almost everyone is, then it probably doesn't make a huge difference which one you go for.

shuttlenote
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:17 am

by shuttlenote

Calnago wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:46 pm
A lot of people seem to compare published reach numbers from geometry charts as if they are actually comparable. The only way two reach numbers are comparable is if they are both measured at the same stack height. If the stack heights are different then it’s not that hard to make a mental adjustment for comparability sake (about 3mm per centimeter of stack).
Stupid question but for clarification; If we were comparing two bikes with same reach, the bike with a 1 cm lower stack has an equivalent of 3mm more reach?

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Calnago
In Memoriam
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

[edit]: No, the one with the centimeter lower stack has less reach. Imagine raising the stack by 1cm on the lower one. Now project where the extended headtube would be... if it had a reach of say 385mm at a certain stack height, then the stack was raised 1cm, and the headtube projected higher, it would be further back than it was before, and this the reach at the new stack height will be less. Hope that makes sense. A little trig can get you the exact amount of difference if you know the exact angle of the headtube, but for practical purposes I just like to use ~3mm per centimeter of stack difference as a more than close enough approximation when I’m doing the quick and dirty comparisons in my head.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Gary71
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:25 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

by Gary71

Ilovesocks wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm

So I think I've done the right thing, but it does feel a bit big after the Cento. Maybe I just have to get used to it but I really would welcome your feedback. As a last resort, I do have a riding buddy who loves the deal I got and would buy it off me for what I paid if I did decide I should have gone smaller.
Rich,
the bike looks perfectly proportional from the pictures. Judging by the method you used before purchasing - you touch points should be within a mm or too of your Wilier set up. So you feeling of the bike feels a bit big is probably comming from
1) the view from the cockpit (the tubset is thinker/larger looking...., almost industrial looking) with the squared off edges of the C64 compared to your Wilier and
2) The handling. I'm not saying that the C64 has poor handling (far from it), but the rear stays are 41.2 and you're coming from a bike that had 40.5 stays and the rear wheel more underneath you. Colnago's can handle like they are on rails, but you need to shift your body weigh around more to achieve this (forward and inside towards the corner). But by God when you get it right, it puts a grin on your face and you want to do another ascent just so you can come down again. :D
The steering on your Wilier can be done a lot more with your hips seated and giving you an increased feeling of agility, the bike is more underneath you and gives a feeling like it has disappeared.
You will get a little more of that with a 52s frame (stays are .2mm shorter down to 41) - but still won't be as much or close to that of your Wilier.
So I will ask an alternate question - how does your new bike handle (feel) compared to your Wilier?

Pierre86
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon May 13, 2019 3:53 pm

by Pierre86

reedplayer wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:26 am
hmmm, the 54s has a 175mm-headtube, which imo is little bit long for 182cm/standard body-poportions. 175mm corresponds with a cannondale super six evo in 58.
An older Evo in 58 is 177 and they have gotten taller each new generation, now 188. There's also plenty of bikes in 56 with near as tall head tubes as well.
S6 Evo
S5 Aero

WorkonSunday
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:39 pm

by WorkonSunday

https://app.velogicfit.com/frame-comparison
this website does wonder.

i own both wilier and colnago bikes (some will say too many but hey ho..).

at the moment im running 120mm -6 degree stem no spacer (but headset cover is 10mm high) with cento1 air (size s). and my V1r with 110mm -17 degree no spacer. the stack is very close but according to the website reach is about 10mm out. However, i am using a different width handlebar on th V1r so overall the feel works out the same.
Some say pour 10ml water out of your bottle to save that last bit of the weight. Sorry, i go one step further, i tend to the rider off my bikes. :thumbup:

User avatar
kgt
Posts: 8678
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

Great link. Thanks!

Gary71
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:25 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

by Gary71

yes - awesome website.
Many thanks

MarcFaFo
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:58 pm

by MarcFaFo

Gary71 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:08 pm
Ilovesocks wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:32 pm

So I think I've done the right thing, but it does feel a bit big after the Cento. Maybe I just have to get used to it but I really would welcome your feedback. As a last resort, I do have a riding buddy who loves the deal I got and would buy it off me for what I paid if I did decide I should have gone smaller.
Rich,
the bike looks perfectly proportional from the pictures. Judging by the method you used before purchasing - you touch points should be within a mm or too of your Wilier set up. So you feeling of the bike feels a bit big is probably comming from
1) the view from the cockpit (the tubset is thinker/larger looking...., almost industrial looking) with the squared off edges of the C64 compared to your Wilier and
2) The handling. I'm not saying that the C64 has poor handling (far from it), but the rear stays are 41.2 and you're coming from a bike that had 40.5 stays and the rear wheel more underneath you. Colnago's can handle like they are on rails, but you need to shift your body weigh around more to achieve this (forward and inside towards the corner). But by God when you get it right, it puts a grin on your face and you want to do another ascent just so you can come down again. :D
The steering on your Wilier can be done a lot more with your hips seated and giving you an increased feeling of agility, the bike is more underneath you and gives a feeling like it has disappeared.
Well here's my experience. I swapped the Willier because I did not like it's geometry it feels imo a more stretched and scetchy bike. I am 182cm and my inseam is 90.8cm. After many hours of comapring geometry i ended up with Colnago V2R (disc) size 54S. Saddle height 80.5cm (cc BB to top Saddle). I had the chance to compare both on descents (Alpes - Ardennes) and local circuit races. The Wilier needs full attention going down hil and constant attention going into corners. The Colnago feels that if you point the bike to go into a cerain direction it just does it. You can enjoy going into a corner, hairpin or high speed descent.

Ilovesocks
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:57 pm

by Ilovesocks

OP here. I've read and re-read your posts - thanks. I can't disagree with any of them, especially the point that I can get the 54S touch points to within mm of the Wilier and that it looks well-proportioned.....however I just wasn't happy. It still felt too 'big' compared to many wonderful rides on the Wilier (Little Willy now, I guess) and so I sat on a 52S in the store (wasn't available when I was choosing) and it immediately felt so much better.

So against most advice and wisdom, I pulled the trigger and purchased a Silver 52S, knowing I could sell my Black 54S to my brother. I'm much happier, it's just an emotional thing but Colnagos are an emptional purchase :D (ignore the stem, it's the only 110mm I had and it's just to get exactly the position I want)
IMG_6277.jpg
IMG_6274.png

Although, in a final twist, my Brother has decided the 54S is too big for him so I guess it'll be in the "for sale" section very soon. I'm still happy though, I love the Silver and the feel of the smaller bike.

Rich

AJS914
Posts: 4216
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

The proportions there look perfect. I don't see how you could even get the stem in the same position on a 54S since it has 20mm more stack height.

I went through a similar thing but fortunately I didn't buy two frames. I was thinking 54S. It looked good on paper and then I went to a shop and sat on a 54S and it just felt big. I'm pretty sure I'm happier on my 52S with a couple of spacers than I would be on a 54S that is slammed. I think too many people sizing up their frame these days just so the stem is slammed.

by Weenie


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Calnago
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by Calnago

I think your setup looks great... but somewhere along the way you must have decided you wanted a whole different fit than your original thinking. Earlier you posted a couple pics of what your setup would be like on a 52s C64 (with maybe 1cm less saddle height) but as far as spacers etc was concerned this was it....
Image
So, there's quite a disconnect between your current fit and this if you can eliminate the two centimeters of spacers shown above.

And here was the C-RS set up for you, with over 3cm of spacers,...
Image

So it's curious that all of a sudden you now decided to increase your saddle to bar drop by 2-3cm from original, cuz that's a lot. Doesn't matter in the end if the 52 fits you... it looks great in that setup but it's a very different setup than in the two pics above.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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