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Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:01 am
by TobinHatesYou
flying wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:48 pm
Nikoras wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:40 pm
Thanks to "current marketing trends" in road bikes with fatter tires and disc brakes I was able to have a fun time doing a bit of offroading on a whim on my mostly road bike. That's worth something to me.
That is good that you feel better exploring that road but we have also been using much skinnier tubulars & rim brakes in races such as Paris Roubaix & worse for over 100 years.

I personally have been smiling a bit at the whole "gravel" movement lately & how they have created that niche needing yet another bike.
Not CX & not Mountain bike mind you but "gravel" :roll:

If you want to ride a route with a suboptimal set-up, that’s your business. “We’ve been doing it this way for 100 years” is usually not a great argument. Gravel bikes are fine and most people aren’t going to buy a strict CX bike to do C category races. They’re going to use gravel bikes or even mountain bikes. Gravel bikes are pretty ideal for those increasingly popular mixed surface rides/events...or you know, being an n=1 bike.

Gravel as genre is less niche than a much less versatile road race bike. Add on top of that a weight-weenie sub-genre...that’s a true niche.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:01 am
by Weenie

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 am
by neeb
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:11 pm
neeb wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:43 pm

I didn't.

You sure did. Certain bikes get hardware for mounting fenders/mudguards. It has nothing to do with whether the frame uses disc or rim-brakes, but the stated purpose of the bike. Is it a road race bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a true CX bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a gravel bike? Maaaaybe. Is it a touring bike? Yes, most likely. Etc, etc. You're being even more disingenuous whether intentional or not because wet braking performance is not the only advantage of disc-brakes.

HTH.
That's the red herring.

The false premise is that rim brakes are just as powerful as hydro disks.
I didn't make that premise - the (implied) premise was that rim brakes are sufficiently powerful (in the dry at least). They are powerful enough to almost instantaneously lock up the wheels. The only real difference is that you have to pull the levers a little harder.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:25 am
by neeb
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:55 pm
neeb wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:53 pm

But the other advantages are negligible and outweighed by the disadvantages, as I implied.

Oh you mean negligible advantages like being able to swap wheelsets between a CX bike, gravel bike and road bike? You mean negligible advantages like never having to worry about exploding tubes or heat related rim failure? You mean negligible advantages like being able to ride carbon rims even in the worst weather? Negligible advantages like different width rims not requiring caliper adjustment? Negligible advantages like a slightly out of true wheel not causing pulsing? Negligible advantages like the option of completely hidden hoses/cabling? Etc, etc.
- Outweighed by not being able to swap wheels between different road bikes (i.e. including ones that were made more than 2 or 3 years ago..). And only relevant if you have CX and gravel bikes of course.
- Never had exploded tubes or heat related rim failures. And potentially outweighed in any case by being able to use tubulars with rim brakes, with associated greater safety in the event of a blowout from any cause (tubular disc wheels seem to be like hen's teeth).
- Not relevant, as my "negligible advantages" comment was made in relation to dry conditions. Besides, you CAN ride good carbon rims in any weather (or just swap to alloy ones of course).
- Yes, that's completely negligible.
- Vastly outweighed by the hassles of squealing discs, bent disks, disc alignment beween different wheels etc.
- Vastly outweighed by aero / weight disadvantages of discs, disc calipers etc.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:54 am
by Nikoras
flying wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:48 pm
Nikoras wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:40 pm
Thanks to "current marketing trends" in road bikes with fatter tires and disc brakes I was able to have a fun time doing a bit of offroading on a whim on my mostly road bike. That's worth something to me.
That is good that you feel better exploring that road but we have also been using much skinnier tubulars & rim brakes in races such as Paris Roubaix & worse for over 100 years.
I know I'm not Peter Sagan and my gouch is probably a lot more sensitive. I don't have the confidence of a pro to be able to rail down chunky gravel with a skinny tire and rely on wet muddy rims to stop me. That changes a little with a 28mm tire and a breaking surface that is elevated from the muck.

I guess what I'm saying is that I fall into a specific niche. I am an amateur rider who likes to go exploring new places and going on long weekend rides. To that end there are tangible benefits of disc brakes (mainly being able to run fatter tires). This runs counter to a lot of the "road disc brakes are purely a marketing gimmick" arguments in this thread.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:02 am
by TobinHatesYou
Nikoras wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:54 am

I guess what I'm saying is that I fall into a specific niche. I am an amateur rider who likes to go exploring new places and going on long weekend rides. To that end there are tangible benefits of disc brakes (mainly being able to run fatter tires). This runs counter to a lot of the "road disc brakes are purely a marketing gimmick" arguments in this thread.

Owning a versatile bike is not niche no matter how hard people try to convince you it is. Don’t fall into their trap. Owning lots of bikes with varying levels of redundancy and specificity, that’s niche.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 am
by talltales
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:33 pm
talltales wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:40 pm
Discs are NOT impervious to rain either. When wet they tend to squeal and loose 1/2 the break power. I now have two TRP equipped road bikes and both have abysmal braking compared to good calipers, in either wet or dry. NOT IMPRESSED.
Maybe you should try good disk brakes.
Sure, as if any disc brake is impervious to rain. - Its a myth, - they squeal like pigs, and before the TRPs were suposed to be the bees knees, cos they are discs and dual side and and discs are great in the rain and have great modulation and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, not really. A pair of good calipers like the newer shmano stuff are better, lighter and cheaper.

Im sure there are fine disc brakes out there, but the shortcomings needs to be recognised as well. On the road bike side of things cost is still a massive factor too. Hydro brake equipped bikes compared to the same model with rim brakes are still much more expensive. You need to consider if all that money are better spent elsewhere.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:44 am
by TheRich
talltales wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 am
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:33 pm
talltales wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:40 pm
Discs are NOT impervious to rain either. When wet they tend to squeal and loose 1/2 the break power. I now have two TRP equipped road bikes and both have abysmal braking compared to good calipers, in either wet or dry. NOT IMPRESSED.
Maybe you should try good disk brakes.
Sure, as if ANYdisc brakes are impervious to rain. - Its a myth, - they squeal like pigs, and before the TRPs were suposed to be the bees knees, cos they are discs and blah, blah, blah.
Sounds like you got sucked in by marketing, doesn't it?

Cable operated disks are a half step, the advantage of hydro disks is part hydro, part disk. So nobody should be surprised that your budget based choice isn't as good as a standard, let alone premium, offering. So no, your hybrid/department store bike brakes aren't quite representative of what we're talking about here. Buy cheap shit, get cheap shit.

Btw, I really don't understand this complete amnesia about what rim brakes do when wet, they either barely work on carbon rims or barely work slightly better while making the most ungodly houl which resonates through the entire bicycle on AL rims. Disks will make some noise, but at least they work.

They way you people talk, it's as if you'd rather just run into something than have your brakes make some noise.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:46 am
by TheRich
neeb wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 am
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:11 pm
neeb wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:43 pm

I didn't.

You sure did. Certain bikes get hardware for mounting fenders/mudguards. It has nothing to do with whether the frame uses disc or rim-brakes, but the stated purpose of the bike. Is it a road race bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a true CX bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a gravel bike? Maaaaybe. Is it a touring bike? Yes, most likely. Etc, etc. You're being even more disingenuous whether intentional or not because wet braking performance is not the only advantage of disc-brakes.

HTH.
That's the red herring.

The false premise is that rim brakes are just as powerful as hydro disks.
I didn't make that premise - the (implied) premise was that rim brakes are sufficiently powerful (in the dry at least). They are powerful enough to almost instantaneously lock up the wheels. The only real difference is that you have to pull the levers a little harder.
Sticking your foot in the spokes will lock up the wheel too.

You're so wrapped up in defending what you have that you can't even think straight.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:48 am
by TheRich
flying wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:48 pm
Nikoras wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:40 pm
Thanks to "current marketing trends" in road bikes with fatter tires and disc brakes I was able to have a fun time doing a bit of offroading on a whim on my mostly road bike. That's worth something to me.
That is good that you feel better exploring that road but we have also been using much skinnier tubulars & rim brakes in races such as Paris Roubaix & worse for over 100 years.

I personally have been smiling a bit at the whole "gravel" movement lately & how they have created that niche needing yet another bike.
Not CX & not Mountain bike mind you but "gravel" :roll:
Go ahead and sign up for a gravel race with skinny tubulars and rim brakes, tough guy.

The evidence doesn't support you here.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:20 am
by neeb
TheRich wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:46 am
neeb wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:11 am
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:11 pm



You sure did. Certain bikes get hardware for mounting fenders/mudguards. It has nothing to do with whether the frame uses disc or rim-brakes, but the stated purpose of the bike. Is it a road race bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a true CX bike? No provision for mudguards. Is it a gravel bike? Maaaaybe. Is it a touring bike? Yes, most likely. Etc, etc. You're being even more disingenuous whether intentional or not because wet braking performance is not the only advantage of disc-brakes.

HTH.
That's the red herring.

The false premise is that rim brakes are just as powerful as hydro disks.
I didn't make that premise - the (implied) premise was that rim brakes are sufficiently powerful (in the dry at least). They are powerful enough to almost instantaneously lock up the wheels. The only real difference is that you have to pull the levers a little harder.
Sticking your foot in the spokes will lock up the wheel too.

You're so wrapped up in defending what you have that you can't even think straight.
Ah, so "thinking straight" is equating pulling a lever a tiny bit harder with sticking your foot in the front wheel.

You are clearly using a slightly different definition of "straight" to the one I am familiar with... Does it involve granny knots in seven-dimensional hyperspace, by any chance?

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:28 am
by talltales
TheRich wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:44 am
talltales wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:30 am
TheRich wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:33 pm
talltales wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:40 pm
Discs are NOT impervious to rain either. When wet they tend to squeal and loose 1/2 the break power. I now have two TRP equipped road bikes and both have abysmal braking compared to good calipers, in either wet or dry. NOT IMPRESSED.
Maybe you should try good disk brakes.
Sure, as if ANYdisc brakes are impervious to rain. - Its a myth, - they squeal like pigs, and before the TRPs were suposed to be the bees knees, cos they are discs and blah, blah, blah.
Sounds like you got sucked in by marketing, doesn't it?

Cable operated disks are a half step, the advantage of hydro disks is part hydro, part disk. So nobody should be surprised that your budget based choice isn't as good as a standard, let alone premium, offering. So no, your hybrid/department store bike brakes aren't quite representative of what we're talking about here. Buy cheap shit, get cheap shit.

Btw, I really don't understand this complete amnesia about what rim brakes do when wet, they either barely work on carbon rims or barely work slightly better while making the most ungodly houl which resonates through the entire bicycle on AL rims. Disks will make some noise, but at least they work.

They way you people talk, it's as if you'd rather just run into something than have your brakes make some noise.
It sure does sound like i got suckered. Thats the complaint. The brakes are NOT on par with the hype ... You underscore my point.

Funny how perception and arguments changes to suit the agenda. Ive aired my frustrations before. Usually I get attacked for not knowing how to set them up, how to break in, ect. - Cos TRPs and discs are great and if not, its user fail. - today they are just cheap, department store crap and i shuldnt interupt when the big boys talk about REAL disc brakes .. OK, lol. Great cop out ! :-)

- and then you have to introduce rim brakes on carbon, in the rain to make your case. Sure I agree. THAT is a shite setup and anything is better. However it sure is a low bar beating that.

The issue with squealing discs is not only do they squeal, they also dont breake well. Not breaking right is the unfortunate sideeffect of the squealing/vibrating disc.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:43 am
by TobinHatesYou
If there is a difference in braking power between a squealing/honking disc set-up and a quiet one, it's borderline undetectable. Perhaps you are projecting some rim-brake experiences??? I'm honestly confused by this statement because I don't remember this really being an issue with either brake technology. The few times I have had disc squeal, it became psychological...I was drag braking with hesitation on some group rides because of it. Switching away from SRAM's OEM pads to SwissStop Disc RS yellow pads 99% eliminates squeal. White Lightning Clean Streak or Finish Line "yellow" degreaser or brake cleaner deals with the remaining %.

Maybe if you spill a shitload of oil on your rotors, but that's way beyond having a bit of squeal.

You're free to love your rim brakes to death, but don't spread FUD about disc brakes.

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:55 am
by talltales
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:43 am
If there is a difference in braking power between a squealing/honking disc set-up and a quiet one, it's borderline undetectable. Perhaps you are projecting some rim-brake experiences??? I'm honestly confused by this statement because I don't remember this really being an issue with either brake technology. The few times I have had disc squeal, it became psychological...I was drag braking with hesitation on some group rides because of it. Switching away from SRAM's OEM pads to SwissStop Disc RS yellow pads 99% eliminates squeal. White Lightning Clean Streak or Finish Line "yellow" degreaser or brake cleaner deals with the remaining %.

Maybe if you spill a shitload of oil on your rotors, but that's way beyond having a bit of squeal.

You're free to love your rim brakes to death, but don't spread FUD about disc brakes.
The "aguments" just get better and better. Now Im projecting and spilling oil on my rotors. :roll:

Im NOT spreading FUD. I tell it like it is. Both my TRP eqipped bikes have very poor brake performance.

Apparently the disc brake police doet not allow that position. You make up endless "arguments" and attacks.

Now I only need to "do my home work", get special non compression cables that didnt come oem with the bikes, get really expensive 3rd party pads, clean the discs (again) with special bike degreaser, set it up right, break in the pads (the right way - what ever that is), not spill oil on the discs and stop projecting to make em work .. OK, Im sure its great then :-) ... and if if it still doesnt work right, im sure its still user fail, cos discs are great!

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:40 am
by Nikoras
I know I'm new here and we all have very strong opinions on brakes but could we maybe keep this a bit more civil?

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:40 am
by Weenie

Re: Disc brakes: your greatest dreams, and fears confirmed.

Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:43 am
by Nefarious86
To be fair cable disc brakes are mostly pus bar the Pauls units.

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