Understeer Whilst Cornering

[Slammed]

These are just sensations and ideas from my experience racing. It's hard to explain why but it works very well for me. I race most of the fastest crits in North America and have no problem hanging through the corners with the best.

Hang on, how do you know which methods give you a greater chance of losing the front wheel if you have no problems through corners? In order to find that out you kinda do have to crash a whole bunch

I'd also say that you're all taking this discussion in a different direction. 'Understeer' in the sense that it is being discussed by the OP in this thread actually has next to nothing to do with the physical limit of grip on the front tyre.

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[Karvalo]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

[TheRich]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering (actually losing traction), it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

[wheelbuilder]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering, it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

Pushing the bike down on the outside end of the bars like he is describing as correct works against the lean as it wants to stand the bike up. Pushing down on the outside pedal helps with traction immensely and pushing down on the inside of the bars helps with lean-ability and provides good counter steer. I think I get what he is trying to describe, but it's the inside bar you want to push on. Conversely for some reason, if you are battling a heavy crosswind that is whipping your front wheel around, you can combat that force by pushing on the outside of the bars opposite the direction of wind. My experience.

[drhex]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering (actually losing traction), it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

You’re right on limit of traction but completely wrong on weight vs countersteering. Everybody actually countersteers intuitively all the time, this is what keeps you going straight. Google cycle inverted steering, there is fun films on what happens when you reverse steering. You can corner by shifting your weight but it is way less efficient and much slower (and you still countersteer even though you might not realize). Try to do it actively next time you cycle and you’ll be surprised how nimble your bike will feel. Going into the drops, pushing on the inside handlebar and outside pedal to build a stable bridge across the bike is the right and only way to go, it is simple physics and is the same for all two wheeled contraptions.

[TheRich]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering, it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

Pushing the bike down on the outside end of the bars like he is describing as correct works against the lean as it wants to stand the bike up. Pushing down on the outside pedal helps with traction immensely and pushing down on the inside of the bars helps with lean-ability and provides good counter steer. I think I get what he is trying to describe, but it's the inside bar you want to push on. Conversely for some reason, if you are battling a heavy crosswind that is whipping your front wheel around, you can combat that force by pushing on the outside of the bars opposite the direction of wind. My experience.

He said "Pushing on your inside hand definitely leans the bike harder." It does. Obviously you're pushing against your feet, but that's just a reaction to pushing the bars and completely transparent.

Point being that counter steering isn't the only way to induce a lean angle. A road bike, because of its already quick steering, will react very quickly to a push on the bars compared to a MTB, but there is no question as to whether it works or not.

This is all very besides the point because the most likely culprit for not navigating a corner is simply not navigating the corner. However you turn the bike is fine, as long as you turn the bike.

[TheRich]

If you're "understeering" you're not leaning your bike over enough,

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering (actually losing traction), it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

You’re right on limit of traction but completely wrong on weight vs countersteering. Everybody actually countersteers intuitively all the time, this is what keeps you going straight. Google cycle inverted steering, there is fun films on what happens when you reverse steering. You can corner by shifting your weight but it is way less efficient and much slower (and you still countersteer even though you might not realize). Try to do it actively next time you cycle and you’ll be surprised how nimble your bike will feel. Going into the drops, pushing on the inside handlebar and outside pedal to build a stable bridge across the bike is the right and only way to go, it is simple physics and is the same for all two wheeled contraptions.

What we're doing just riding along is nothing more than keeping the tires under our center of gravity. Get off balance to the right a little, you steer to the right a little until you regain your balance. People CAN learn to ride those opposite steering bikes, it just takes a lot of time to relearn how to ride a bike. All those demonstrate is that years and years of learned habits or reactions are very hard to resist.

Counter steering is inherently slower because you're initiating an action, unbalancing the bike, and waiting to catch the unbalance by turning the bars into the corner to regain balance.

Pushing the bike over skips a step. Your initial action directly results in the bike leaning over and then you turn in to stop the imbalance. The thing is that in the vast majority of cases, a relatively slow and lazy counter steering move is sufficient for road cycling since we're in an environment designed for much larger vehicles. Get into something too tight for cars, like a tight path or MTB trail, add in some speed and it starts making a difference. That is THE way to ride a MTB quickly down a twisty trail.

If bicycles weighed 400+ lbs, and went several times faster, we'd be forced to ride them like motorcycles and depend on counter steering...but they don't. It just happens to be the case that counter steering is sufficient for most cases.

[drhex]

Then why are you advising a technique that makes it harder to lean the bike?

No pun intended but it seems like your argument is going round in circles

Why would pushing the bike down into a turn make it harder to lean the bike? It's just a more direct way to do it than counter steering, instead of steering the bike out from underneath you (which is what counter steering does), just push it over. It's an effective way to get a really aggressive turn in.

But he's right about traction, at least with road bikes. Once you exceed the cornering limit on the road with skinny tires (outside of a slippery patch or from braking while in the corner), it's gone, you're going down. So it's rarely a question of under steering (actually losing traction), it's a question of simply navigating the corner.

Want to get better at cornering, do it more often looking where you want to go and using all the road available and fast becomes normal.

You’re right on limit of traction but completely wrong on weight vs countersteering. Everybody actually countersteers intuitively all the time, this is what keeps you going straight. Google cycle inverted steering, there is fun films on what happens when you reverse steering. You can corner by shifting your weight but it is way less efficient and much slower (and you still countersteer even though you might not realize). Try to do it actively next time you cycle and you’ll be surprised how nimble your bike will feel. Going into the drops, pushing on the inside handlebar and outside pedal to build a stable bridge across the bike is the right and only way to go, it is simple physics and is the same for all two wheeled contraptions.

What we're doing just riding along is nothing more than keeping the tires under our center of gravity. Get off balance to the right a little, you steer to the right a little until you regain your balance. People CAN learn to ride those opposite steering bikes, it just takes a lot of time to relearn how to ride a bike. All those demonstrate is that years and years of learned habits or reactions are very hard to resist.

Counter steering is inherently slower because you're initiating an action, unbalancing the bike, and waiting to catch the unbalance by turning the bars into the corner to regain balance.

Pushing the bike over skips a step. Your initial action directly results in the bike leaning over and then you turn in to stop the imbalance. The thing is that in the vast majority of cases, a relatively slow and lazy counter steering move is sufficient for road cycling since we're in an environment designed for much larger vehicles. Get into something too tight for cars, like a tight path or MTB trail, add in some speed and it starts making a difference. That is THE way to ride a MTB quickly down a twisty trail.

If bicycles weighed 400+ lbs, and went several times faster, we'd be forced to ride them like motorcycles and depend on counter steering...but they don't. It just happens to be the case that counter steering is sufficient for most cases.

Sorry, not true. Try it, you’ll be surprised. The point with reverse steering and unlearning is that it is somewhat hard to learn (but you never forget) because it is counterintuitive as you countersteer.

[Karvalo]

He said "Pushing on your inside hand definitely leans the bike harder." It does.

Yes, and he said that in a post where he was telling people not to do it.

Look, you should reread the thread before commenting again, because you've fundamentally misread the arguments that have been put forwards.

[Slammed]

He said "Pushing on your inside hand definitely leans the bike harder." It does.

Yes, and he said that in a post where he was telling people not to do it.

Look, you should reread the thread before commenting again, because you've fundamentally misread the arguments that have been put forwards.

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[wingguy]

A few people have said that pushing on the outside makes the bike want to stand up

Right, which is going to make the OPs ’understeer’ problem worse.

which counteracts your front wheel wanting to wash out.

Again, why?

[Etienne]

I didn't say that pushing on the inside was incorrect but rather that pushing on the outside of the bar is superior when you're looking for the most traction. A few people have said that pushing on the outside makes the bike want to stand up which counteracts your front wheel wanting to wash out. Most of the time it doesn't matter how you do it but in my opinion when you're railing corners super hard or it's wet out you want to put your weight on the outside of the bar.

What you describe is a way to avoid losing the grip when cornering hard ... I think it's a little bit different from understeering even if most of the time, understeering may be linked to a lack of confidence in the tire's grip.

However, when you push the outside hand then you reduce the leaning angle of your bike and to stay in the curve, you have to open your inside elbow and knee (I think you mentioned it) ... you have to "work" the bike into the curve hence more effort, perhaps less speed at the end as you can't pedal in that position.

I think I do that sometimes ... but that's when I did something wrong and want to stay on my bike.

[Slammed]

I didn't say that pushing on the inside was incorrect but rather that pushing on the outside of the bar is superior when you're looking for the most traction. A few people have said that pushing on the outside makes the bike want to stand up which counteracts your front wheel wanting to wash out. Most of the time it doesn't matter how you do it but in my opinion when you're railing corners super hard or it's wet out you want to put your weight on the outside of the bar.

What you describe is a way to avoid losing the grip when cornering hard ... I think it's a little bit different from understeering even if most of the time, understeering may be linked to a lack of confidence in the tire's grip.

However, when you push the outside hand then you reduce the leaning angle of your bike and to stay in the curve, you have to open your inside elbow and knee (I think you mentioned it) ... you have to "work" the bike into the curve hence more effort, perhaps less speed at the end as you can't pedal in that position.

I think I do that sometimes ... but that's when I did something wrong and want to stay on my bike.

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[Slammed]

A few people have said that pushing on the outside makes the bike want to stand up

Right, which is going to make the OPs ’understeer’ problem worse.

which counteracts your front wheel wanting to wash out.

Again, why?

Just connect with the dots to see why. Your bike wanting to stand up - or the extreme of that, highsiding, is the opposite of your wheels washing out beneath you. You push on the outside of the bar to stay upright while cornering, not to steer through it.

[DCcyclist]

Nah, it’s him. Sure some bikes turn in faster or slower, some have more or less stability, but fundamentally they can all corner without pushing wide.

Mid corner ‘understeer’ is going to come from lack of commitment to leaving the bike and looking where you’re going, not where you’re going to go. As said humans have a huge tendency in all sports to naturally go where their eyes are pointing. In cycling this is one of those nasty feedback loops that gets worse after it starts happening. The more you're worried about drifting wide, the more you look wide to check where you would end up, the more likely you are to drift wide and so on.

It takes a mental reset. Practise good technique and eyeline while going slower, then start adding speed again. Don’t expect to figure it out all in one go while going warp 10.

What described here is the absolute worst and overall it's good advice. You either do the mental reset wilfully then slowly improve or crash going at speed and be forced to do it. I'd do the former. I had a bad crash a year ago and still suffering mentally from that.