Understeer Whilst Cornering

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timmerrr
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:09 pm

by timmerrr

I feel a lot of people here are over thinking decending and cornering. If you lead with your head and shoulders and look at forward at where you want to go, that is where your bike is going, plain and simple. Learning a proper line is also important. I watched a rider pedal strike and crash in front of me on a fast 90* left hand turn in a crit. He was on the front and his line was horrible. I proceeded to pedal through that corner on every lap except for the lap I attacked and took the corner at 33mph. It does take expericence and commitment to corner and decend quickly but it is no where near as complicated as you guys are making it out to be.
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cyclespeed
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

timmerrr wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:44 pm
I feel a lot of people here are over thinking decending and cornering. If you lead with your head and shoulders and look at forward at where you want to go, that is where your bike is going, plain and simple. Learning a proper line is also important. I watched a rider pedal strike and crash in front of me on a fast 90* left hand turn in a crit. He was on the front and his line was horrible. I proceeded to pedal through that corner on every lap except for the lap I attacked and took the corner at 33mph. It does take expericence and commitment to corner and decend quickly but it is no where near as complicated as you guys are making it out to be.
+1 on this ^^

I would say 70% of it is picking the right line, 20% braking properly (i.e. hard and in a straight line), and 10% all the other little bits and bobs.

Look up Cyclespeed Descending on Youtube for some basic tips

wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

Slammed wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 pm
Just connect with the dots to see why. Your bike wanting to stand up - or the extreme of that, highsiding, is the opposite of your wheels washing out beneath you.
So? What does that mean?
You push on the outside of the bar to stay upright while cornering, not to steer through it.
So how does that advice help the OP with his problem?

Slammed
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:32 am

by Slammed

wingguy wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:48 pm
Slammed wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:19 pm
Just connect with the dots to see why. Your bike wanting to stand up - or the extreme of that, highsiding, is the opposite of your wheels washing out beneath you.
So? What does that mean?
You push on the outside of the bar to stay upright while cornering, not to steer through it.
So how does that advice help the OP with his problem?
.
Last edited by Slammed on Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheRich
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

drhex wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:39 am
Sorry, not true. Try it, you’ll be surprised. The point with reverse steering and unlearning is that it is somewhat hard to learn (but you never forget) because it is counterintuitive as you countersteer.
We're not riding reverse steering bikes, they're irrelevant, all you're doing is conflating years upon years of ingrained habits and "intuition."

It's a little baffling that you say something I commonly do isn't possible...maybe it's something you should try.

wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

Slammed wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:35 pm
That's how you lean the bike hard without losing your front wheel. I'm not sure why this is so confusing.
You literally just said your method makes the bike want to stand up. Now you’re saying your method is how you lean the bike hard. That’s why it’s confusing.

That, and there is absolutely no physical reason why your method would make the front wheel any more resistant to sliding out.

drhex
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:49 pm

by drhex

TheRich wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:02 am
drhex wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:39 am
Sorry, not true. Try it, you’ll be surprised. The point with reverse steering and unlearning is that it is somewhat hard to learn (but you never forget) because it is counterintuitive as you countersteer.
We're not riding reverse steering bikes, they're irrelevant, all you're doing is conflating years upon years of ingrained habits and "intuition."

It's a little baffling that you say something I commonly do isn't possible...maybe it's something you should try.
No, I am not saying you can’t corner by moving your weight, I am saying that learning to ride a bike is done by learning to countersteer intuitively and that you do it all the time but refuse to use it to go round corners. I have had this discussion with many cyclists (and motorcyclists) who all agree this is the way to go once they think it through and try it. Most are very surprised how easy and fast it makes moving the bike, especially in situations like opening car doors and such.
it’s a free world, just do what you want - why don’t you give it a try on your next ride anyway and see how it works for you?

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Lewn777
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

timmerrr wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:44 pm
I feel a lot of people here are over thinking decending and cornering. If you lead with your head and shoulders and look at forward at where you want to go, that is where your bike is going, plain and simple. Learning a proper line is also important. I watched a rider pedal strike and crash in front of me on a fast 90* left hand turn in a crit. He was on the front and his line was horrible. I proceeded to pedal through that corner on every lap except for the lap I attacked and took the corner at 33mph. It does take expericence and commitment to corner and decend quickly but it is no where near as complicated as you guys are making it out to be.
+1 someone making sense in this thread. :thumbup:
Some people talking about counter-steering and reverse counter-steering, completely overthinking it.

It's pretty much like golf, you just set-up and then you take your shot. Over-thinking it will cause you get too tense and air swipe or shank it top it or slice it. Just learn to knee-down a motorcycle on a closed road or track and then apply that mental strategy and total relaxed confidence to the road cycling. BTW I have followed and been followed by pros and neo-pros on very complex descents in Tenerife, Majorca and Gran Canaria and they aren't any quicker than I am.

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cyclespeed
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

I used to cycle guide quite a bit, in the Alps and Mallorca and very often the level of descending was very poor, simply because the riders in question had little experience in the mountains.

So, as on this thread, they tend to look for a kind of magic solution, some 'counter-steer' technique that will suddenly make them great descenders. It doesn't really work like that. A bicycle is very light and you just lean into the bend and look where you want to go.

You just have to practice, don't tense up and let yourself and your body learn how to descend. There are some good tips to help riders improve, but basically the more you ride mountains, the better you will get.


Bordcla
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

Vehicles with inline wheels turn by leaning. The way this works is an alteration and stabilisation of various forces, including centripetal, gravitational and frictional forces.

Countersteering will cause the bike to lean, as it temporarily creates an imbalance that the bike will counteract by leaning in the direction opposite the steering input. A bicycle is usually so light that it is fairly easy to make it lean simply by shifting weight. Unlike a motorcycle, which has so much more gyroscopic force given the fast spinning, heavy components and higher traveling speed that it simply isn't near efficient enough to make it lean any other way than via countersteering. (Those other ways still apply, but they just have much more limited effect on a motorcycle for the reasons indicated.)

When they lean, all two-wheeled vehicles self-correct the steering in the direction of the turn, at an angle determined by various factors including weight and its distribution, speed, steering angle, trail, etc.

This self-correction of the steering is essential to maintain the stability and correct arc of the vehicle through the turn. Try overtightening your stem stop cap to restrict the free movement of the bars on your bike and see how scary to ride it becomes.

We all subconsciously do what's necessary to cause the bike to turn and let it stabilized after the steering input. I think the more important take away is what the rider can do to maintain ideal traction and stability through the turn to allow the bicycle to do its thing under optimal traction and stability conditions.

Distribute weight evenly front to rear. Keep weight low, over the bike. Weight the outside pedal. Look though the turn for the vanishing point, or exit point if visible.

All this will maximise available traction and will allow the bicycle to turn optimally. That optimum level will vary as a function of bike geometry, tires, compliance, stiffness, etc.

TheRich
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

drhex wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:15 am
No, I am not saying you can’t corner by moving your weight, I am saying that learning to ride a bike is done by learning to countersteer intuitively and that you do it all the time but refuse to use it to go round corners. I have had this discussion with many cyclists (and motorcyclists) who all agree this is the way to go once they think it through and try it. Most are very surprised how easy and fast it makes moving the bike, especially in situations like opening car doors and such.
it’s a free world, just do what you want - why don’t you give it a try on your next ride anyway and see how it works for you?
I'm genuinely confused as to why you're projecting your refusal to accept that a different technique actually works onto me.

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dj97223
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Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:27 pm

by dj97223

Wow. 4 pages on how to corner. Just practice. Unless you have a mental block (and some people do -- nothing wrong with that), practice will make perfect!
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