Tubes crr comparo - latex crushes the competition

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Imaking20
Posts: 1982
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by Imaking20

El oh effing El

Yeah, pretty much exactly the same. Except the pattern on the side of the tire being different. So turning difference in turning behavior is in my head. Got it.

I'll step away and go back to letting you rule the internet (and Cat 4 races) now
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by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Imaking20 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:01 am
El oh effing El

Yeah, pretty much exactly the same. Except the pattern on the side of the tire being different. So turning difference in turning behavior is in my head. Got it.

I'll step away and go back to letting you rule the internet (and Cat 4 races) now

If you think that file pattern does anything at all...come on. It’s more confirmation that what you’ve experienced is placebo

RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:30 pm
RocketRacing wrote:And right now i have yet to get a pinch flat, or flat with latex. I run tubless for everything else i own (gravel, xc, fatty), but there is an appeal to the no fuss of tubes. But right now low crr and not fiddling with another bike with tubless is influencing my choice. I have yet to risk the fragility and speed of corsa speed tubeless... but it may be soon.
Are you using the Vittoria latex? If yes which version, 19-23mm or 25-28mm?

I have two Vittoria latex tubes sitting the garage. Ones that I got from purchasing my Conti tires. Not sure which version I have. Latex is like the forbidden fruit. I’m scared to touch them.


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I have the 25-28 vittoria as i run 25c tires. I think that os part of the better air retention also... less stretch for the tires.

I also have the silca latex tubes... also made by vittoria, but for different size range (25-30?!) and different, lighter stems. Smae latex with graphine 2.0 however.

Finally, i got a couple of lighter challenge latex tubes. I think they will be fragile, but i want to try them. I kind of wish someone would compare them to vittoria just to see if them being lighter/thinner helps. I guess that they will be more fragile, and not hold air as well... but maybe they will be a bit faster.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I forget, has anyone done a side-by-side comparison between the recent Silca/Vittoria latex tubes and something else popular like Michelin AirComps in a controlled manner? I know Poertner commented about it on his podcast, but I’ll probably end up doing my own test.

Protocol will probably just be be 2 wheels, 2 tires. Measure pressure loss with TireWiz in each at specific intervals. 1hr, 3hr, 6hr, 12hr, 24hr. Switch wheel/tires and do it again.

jlok
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by jlok

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 am
What Hexsense says about tread width (it’s tread, not thread) is also bunk. Take any tire and lean it right on down to something unrealistic like 35deg. The sidewall will not touch pavement unless you are running at ridiculously low tire pressure or if you’re trying to run a 23mm tire on something like an ENVE SES 4.5 AR.
Not sure if it's relevant but the narrow tread of Fusion 5 Performance 11storm 28c definitely makes sidewall touching pavement on 4.5AR. Same doesn't happen on Rubino Pro TLR 28c with the wider tread. They are my own observations.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

jlok wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:31 am

Not sure if it's relevant but the narrow tread of Fusion 5 Performance 11storm 28c definitely makes sidewall touching pavement on 4.5AR. Same doesn't happen on Rubino Pro TLR 28c with the wider tread. They are my own observations.

That's why I mentioned the 4.5 AR as a specific exception. That hookless 25mm internal width really changes the overall shape of the inflated tire though I'm surprised you're getting that with the 28mm Fusion 5s. Are you sure a the sidewall damage is from cornering or could it just be from riding over debris? I'm back to Galactiks on one set of wheels since I have so many extra lying around and I've never really seen sidewall wear on them.

jlok
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by jlok

I'm just saying the tread of the F5 Perf TLR 28c is too narrow when compared to Rubino Pro TLR 28c, so that the contact patch actually exceeds the tread width. As a result, sidewall 3-4mm from the tread will touch the pavement during cornering. I didn't say I experienced any sidewall damage.
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 am

What Hexsense says about tread width (it’s tread, not thread) is also bunk. Take any tire and lean it right on down to something unrealistic like 35deg. The sidewall will not touch pavement unless you are running at ridiculously low tire pressure or if you’re trying to run a 23mm tire on something like an ENVE SES 4.5 AR.
I can see how it can does, at least on my set-up.

Vittoria Corsa G2.0 25c tread width=31.0mm when lay flat on table, measured width on 23mm internal width rim= 29.58mm
Conti GP5000 25c tread width= 27.3mm when lay flat on table, measured width on 23mm internal width rim= 28.11mm. Here we have 3.7mm narrower tread but just 1.4mm narrower inflated width. Notice that measured width is wider than tread width (that measured when tire is flat on the table without any curvature).

Leaning the bike side way without pressure (very realistic angle), side wall of Conti won't touch the ground. Add my weight to compress the tire and it getting quite close (pressure=65psi). Not touching yet but add road irregularity or a bit drop in tire pressure and it can. Anyway, I wouldn't say Conti's tread width is very narrow. There are some other tires with narrower tread (like Michelin Power Competition). But i got a lot of side wall cut on that one too.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 am
I would routinely hop my rear wheel with GP5Ks installed, whether accelerating out of a corner in a crit or just starting a sprint in a straight line. This is all in the dry...in the wet the GP5Ks are downright atrocious.
My GP5000 slip a little more often than 4000sII, but it all happen on either wet road or with a bit of loose dirt. All momentary and recovered.
I haven't slip with Corsa G2.0 so far. But i have harder time controlling the bike in straight line on a short dirt gravel path than GP5000. The tire is grippy, yes. But it also keep white dirt from the road which reduce its grip. Those dirt fall right off the GP5000 after i pass the section.

All these are clincher with Latex tube though. I haven't experience any of these recent Tubeless varient. The GP5000, which use lower TPI on tubeless may perform differently than tubed version.

Edit: Thread -> Tread
Last edited by Hexsense on Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Right, road irregularities are a concern. More tread is the first defense against perforating the casing. I haven't really bothered to measure the width of my tires with calipers, but it seems really variable. Jarno from BRR measures the tread of the Galactik, Performance and All-Season Fusion 5s in that order from widest to narrowest...you'd think it would be the oppposite.

We both made the same observation about the tack of the Vittoria G2.0 compound, but I'm less concerned about it. As long as there is dust/dirt/sand/wet leaves on the road, it's going to be more challenging to grip. If it's residual junk on the tire it will scrub off in moments. The Hutchinson 11Storm compound also has this tack with dirt/dust, not so much with leaves. I agree that the GP5K TL seems to shed fine dirt/dust off immediately.

jencvo
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:01 pm

by jencvo

How is the air retention on the new Vittoria latex tubes? I read somewhere that they hold air much better but I'm really curious if there's any truth to it. I like the lower crr but not thrilled about pumping tires before every ride.

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Pokerface07
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by Pokerface07

Not tested was teh S-Tubo tube. Which tests as fast as the Vittoria latex tubes up to 8 bar.

So if you are running disc brake wheels and can use the S-Tubo - just as good (or possibly better in that it's less like to puncture). Plus it's lighter than latex!
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aeroisnteverything
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

FWIW, here is my summation of the choices, with a view to optimising rolling resistance, grip and weight, in that order:

1) Sunny skies, smooth tarmac, no potholes, some flint on the roads (read: Spain/Mallorca or similar) - use GP5k TL. You probably won't miss the grip too much if you don't ride in the rain. Sealant will take care of any flints or shards that penetrate the casing, and you'll be off quicker than if you have to replace the tube. Hypothetical weight saving with latex tubes is negated by not having to carry spares. Crr is within the margin or error as between latex and tubeless options.

2) Nice roads, but it does rain with some frequency: tubeless Vittoria Corsa/Control 2.0. You'll be thankful for the grip, and the sealant will fix the shard/flint damage as per 1.

3) Crap roads, with potholes, but generally ride in the dry. Consider either (A) GP5k clincher on latex with a couple of tubolito spares in the saddle bag or (B) some other tubeless like Hutchison or Vittoria GP 2.0. My theory for choice A is that sidewall damage on GP5k might not be repairable with sealant, but you'll be ok by puttting in a new tube (standing to be corrected by those who've experienced these failures).

4) Crap roads, with potholes, and rains a lot (read: UK). Pretty much Vittoria 2.0 tubeless all the way.

If you have N+1 bikes and or wheel combinations, you could probably outfit them with appropriate tyre choices depending on the event/occasion.

dooglehead2
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:24 am

by dooglehead2

RocketRacing wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:43 pm
Long story short, on a 10% climb at 16km/hr, light tubolitos may save you 0.6w or so. Vittoria latex will save you far far more. 7w vs butyl for the latex tubes when two wheels are added together. 5 or sow vs light butyl/tubolitto.
You are mixing watts saved from the weight savings up a climb and watts saved from rolling resistance at 45kph. Maybe that was intentional, but I prefer to look at the data from just climbing hills.

For a 10% climb at 16kph, the tubolito on both wheels would save 0.6 watts from gravity and 2.3*16/45 = 0.8 watts from crr - a total of 1.4 watts (compared to a standard butile tube).

Latex tubes would save 0.3 watts from gravity and 7.1*16/45 = 2.5 watts from crr - a total of 2.8 watts.

Latex tubes are still better, but the difference is not as much. I mentioned in another thread that it might be better to use latex in the rear wheel and a tubilito in the front because the weight distribution will shift to the rear while climbing, so crr wont matter as much on the front wheel.

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 177
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by aeroisnteverything

dooglehead2 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:54 pm


Latex tubes are still better, but the difference is not as much. I mentioned in another thread that it might be better to use latex in the rear wheel and a tubilito in the front because the weight distribution will shift to the rear while climbing, so crr wont matter as much on the front wheel.
That's an odd hot tip - because it seems only relevant for the hill climbing portion of the ride (and even then might be a wash), and not for any other part of the ride.

dooglehead2
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:24 am

by dooglehead2

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:13 pm
That's an odd hot tip - because it seems only relevant for the hill climbing portion of the ride (and even then might be a wash), and not for any other part of the ride.
I agree in most cases, but I'm interested in building the fastest hill climbing bike because I mostly do hillclimb races where nearly the entire ride is the hill climbing portion.

by Weenie


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