Tubes crr comparo - latex crushes the competition

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/inner-tube ... resistance

Long story short, on a 10% climb at 16km/hr, light tubolitos may save you 0.6w or so. Vittoria latex will save you far far more. 7w vs butyl for the latex tubes when two wheels are added together. 5 or sow vs light butyl/tubolitto.

I think it supports what we know, but the 7w was a bit more than the typical 5w I attribute to latex. I wonder if that is the new graphine 2.0 that vittoria adds to their (and silca) tubes. I know they hold air better than past versions.

It pays to pump your tires before each ride.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

If I were racing an ITT by itself, I might risk clinchers with latex tubes. Then again, Corsa Speed tubeless are still the fastest tire BRR has ever tested, and have flat protection.

If I were racing an ITT as part of a stage race, I’d definitely want the security of the tubeless setup.

If I were racing pro level with a support structure that allows me to change a flat and get back to the pack then maybe tubulars with latex inner tubes would provide the best combo of Crr and weight savings.

For what I do though, tubeless is king. Yesterday was San Ardo RR...a race which had a notorious parking lot goathead problem in 2017. I picked a goathead out of my tire yesterday during my pre-race ritual waiting in line for the portable toilet. It definitely went through the casing of my Fusion 5 Galactiks, because a very tiny fizz bubble of Orange Seal appeared when I plucked it out.

Plus when solo training I prefer the option that reduces the likelihood of me ever having to stop to repair a flat.

Alexandrumarian
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by Alexandrumarian

Well stuff can happen either way. These past couple months I was all hyped up about the crazy low rr of the 5000tl, started saving money for some fancy wheels etc. Then I go on a ride with a buddy on 5000tl and we go over at speed over a series of potholes. They were pretty nasty because I felt the shocks even in my ankles despite being on a super light / comfy everything carbon thing. 20 meters further my buddy pulls over with a dead rear wheel. Found a couple 2mm gashes, wouldn't seal no matter what. No scratch on my tubulars. Could have been the other way around and I admit that being thorn and glass shard proof takes care of 97% of all flat posibilities. Still, clinchers with latex are not that bad. I've dragged brakes on them in the mountains without problem and even found a fold pinched by the bead and used like that for over 1y. And overall I got less flats on latex than on butyl, but maybe that's just a statistical accident.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Alexandrumarian wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:28 pm
Well stuff can happen either way. These past couple months I was all hyped up about the crazy low rr of the 5000tl, started saving money for some fancy wheels etc. Then I go on a ride with a buddy on 5000tl and we go over at speed over a series of potholes. They were pretty nasty because I felt the shocks even in my ankles despite being on a super light / comfy everything carbon thing. 20 meters further my buddy pulls over with a dead rear wheel. Found a couple 2mm gashes, wouldn't seal no matter what. No scratch on my tubulars. Could have been the other way around and I admit that being thorn and glass shard proof takes care of 97% of all flat posibilities. Still, clinchers with latex are not that bad. I've dragged brakes on them in the mountains without problem and even found a fold pinched by the bead and used like that for over 1y. And overall I got less flats on latex than on butyl, but maybe that's just a statistical accident.

That's completely the GP5K TL experience in the nutshell. It's why I quit using those tires so quickly. The casing is just way, way too fragile. This was my experience with regular GP4K SII clinchers also, but I figured the GP5K TL would be more robust by default. I was wrong. On the other hand I've had good luck with Hutchinsons and the new Vittoria G2.0 tires.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

The last two days I rode over some very crappy roads, some with sharp gravel. The GP5K 28’s performed admirably. From my experience the GP5K is equal to the GP4K from a durability standpoint. And I never had any issues with the GP4K. One thing I won’t do is to run 25’s with low pressure. If you run low pressure you must use a wider and taller tire like the 28. Otherwise you run the risk of pinch flats.

Will take a look at the tube article. I’ve had too many bad experiences with latex so I’ll let others enjoy the RR advantages of latex.


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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

The test didn’t cover the Conti Supersonics. And the Tubolito tested is the standard version not the ultralight version. But I still expect latex to lead in RR.

Does anyone know if road latex tube comes in a heavier weight version? If there’s a thicker and heavier version I might give it one more try.


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RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:23 pm
The test didn’t cover the Conti Supersonics. And the Tubolito tested is the standard version not the ultralight version. But I still expect latex to lead in RR.

Does anyone know if road latex tube comes in a heavier weight version? If there’s a thicker and heavier version I might give it one more try.


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To me, it was all in line with what we know. Maybe added another datapoint to the placing of tubolito for crr (next to light butyl, but far below latex). Silca saw similar results.

But for me, the 7w for two tires using latex is interesting. That would put say the gp5000 clincher ahead of the tubless version. Again... i wonder if it is data variance, or if the updated vittoria latex are that much better...

RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

And right now i have yet to get a pinch flat, or flat with latex. I run tubless for everything else i own (gravel, xc, fatty), but there is an appeal to the no fuss of tubes. But right now low crr and not fiddling with another bike with tubless is influencing my choice. I have yet to risk the fragility and speed of corsa speed tubeless... but it may be soon.
Last edited by RocketRacing on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

RocketRacing wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm

But for me, the 7w for two tires using latex is interesting. That would put say the gp5000 clincher ahead of the tubless version. Again... i wonder if it is data variance, or if the updated vittoria latex are that much better...

Slightly faster, but not by much. Based on the two different protocols, I bet BRR would test the combo at ~7.9-8.1W while the GP5K TL tested at 8.3W. I’ll take that extra 0.2-0.4W per tire penalty for some flat protection in most cases.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

RocketRacing wrote:And right now i have yet to get a pinch flat, or flat with latex. I run tubless for everything else i own (gravel, xc, fatty), but there is an appeal to the no fuss of tubes. But right now low crr and not fiddling with another bike with tubless is influencing my choice. I have yet to risk the fragility and speed of corsa speed tubeless... but it may be soon.
Are you using the Vittoria latex? If yes which version, 19-23mm or 25-28mm?

I have two Vittoria latex tubes sitting the garage. Ones that I got from purchasing my Conti tires. Not sure which version I have. Latex is like the forbidden fruit. I’m scared to touch them.


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Imaking20
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by Imaking20

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:07 pm
RocketRacing wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm

But for me, the 7w for two tires using latex is interesting. That would put say the gp5000 clincher ahead of the tubless version. Again... i wonder if it is data variance, or if the updated vittoria latex are that much better...

Slightly faster, but not by much. Based on the two different protocols, I bet BRR would test the combo at ~7.9-8.1W while the GP5K TL tested at 8.3W. I’ll take that extra 0.2-0.4W per tire penalty for some flat protection in most cases.
What extra flat protection though - didn't you just say above that the 5000TL was way too fragile? That seems like the most durable super-low CRR tubeless tire I've seen tested... But if the argument for tubeless is flat protection, and the 5000TL is actually about as robust as the Corsa Speed - then both miss the point?


I'm actually interested in this because the ride quality of the tubeless setup I just tried (on Corsa 2.0 tlr) was fantastic. Mounting them absolutely took longer than it takes me to glue tubulars though and the handling of them is sketchy compared to my Veloflex tubs.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Imaking20 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:20 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:07 pm
RocketRacing wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:54 pm

But for me, the 7w for two tires using latex is interesting. That would put say the gp5000 clincher ahead of the tubless version. Again... i wonder if it is data variance, or if the updated vittoria latex are that much better...

Slightly faster, but not by much. Based on the two different protocols, I bet BRR would test the combo at ~7.9-8.1W while the GP5K TL tested at 8.3W. I’ll take that extra 0.2-0.4W per tire penalty for some flat protection in most cases.
What extra flat protection though - didn't you just say above that the 5000TL was way too fragile? That seems like the most durable super-low CRR tubeless tire I've seen tested... But if the argument for tubeless is flat protection, and the 5000TL is actually about as robust as the Corsa Speed - then both miss the point?


I'm actually interested in this because the ride quality of the tubeless setup I just tried (on Corsa 2.0 tlr) was fantastic. Mounting them absolutely took longer than it takes me to glue tubulars though and the handling of them is sketchy compared to my Veloflex tubs.

As bad as GP5K TLs are against potholes and other sidewall destroying road features / detritus, they are still more robust than GP5K/GP4K clinchers. They will easily seal up holes caused by staples, goatheads, bits of wire, etc.

And if you want reasonably fast race tires that have better casings, then go with the Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik/Performance or Vittoria Corsa/Corsa Control G2.0 tires I also mentioned. Mavic Yksion Pro USTs are also on my short list.

I’m surprised you say handling on Corsa G2.0s is sketchy. They’re the grippiest race tires I’ve ever used. Mounting Corsa G2.0s required a compressor, but it takes me only a few minutes to pull a tire over the rim, set the bead and add sealant. I can’t see how this is any slower than gluing tubs.

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:40 am

I’m surprised you say handling on Corsa G2.0s is sketchy.
As i change between GP5K and Corsa G2.0 multiple times in the recent month.
I can now say that you can say it either way: GP5K is sketchier than Corsa G2.0, and Corsa G2.0 is sketchier than GP5K. Depending on what condition you judge them. On straight line with bike being vertical on smooth road. The GP5K actually feel more inspiring. It think the stiff vertical running thread is inferior to smooth and softer thread, which has more surface area.

On rough and dusty surface, the Corsa G2.0 feel sketchier. It somehow feel less conforming to the road. Probably something in rubber compound and vertical running thread.

On deep corner, especially wet one, the GP5K is sketchier. GP5K has narrower thread width (for the same casing width). So when you lean a lot it is easier to run out of thread and use part of side wall to touch the road.

So, it is terrain dependent. Slippery road: use Corsa G2.0, Dry ( and probably dusty): use GP5K.

Imaking20
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by Imaking20

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:40 am
As bad as GP5K TLs are against potholes and other sidewall destroying road features / detritus, they are still more robust than GP5K/GP4K clinchers. They will easily seal up holes caused by staples, goatheads, bits of wire, etc.
This is reassuring.
I’m surprised you say handling on Corsa G2.0s is sketchy. They’re the grippiest race tires I’ve ever used. Mounting Corsa G2.0s required a compressor, but it takes me only a few minutes to pull a tire over the rim, set the bead and add sealant. I can’t see how this is any slower than gluing tubs.
After my experience on Corsa Control - I had very high hopes for the Corsa 2.0. After now running them in both tubeless and tubular - at a variety of pressures - they've let me down. I've had both of them slip in a number of different corners, a number of different days, on two different bikes.
Hexsense wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:58 am
As i change between GP5K and Corsa G2.0 multiple times in the recent month.
I can now say that you can say it either way: GP5K is sketchier than Corsa G2.0, and Corsa G2.0 is sketchier than GP5K. Depending on what condition you judge them. On straight line with bike being vertical on smooth road. The GP5K actually feel more inspiring. It think the stiff vertical running thread is inferior to smooth and softer thread, which has more surface area.

On rough and dusty surface, the Corsa G2.0 feel sketchier. It somehow feel less conforming to the road. Probably something in rubber compound and vertical running thread.

On deep corner, especially wet one, the GP5K is sketchier. GP5K has narrower thread width (for the same casing width). So when you lean a lot it is easier to run out of thread and use part of side wall to touch the road.

So, it is terrain dependent. Slippery road: use Corsa G2.0, Dry ( and probably dusty): use GP5K.
And this may explain it exactly (so thank you for sharing). Where I live now is dry and dusty. What little time I spend in wet here will probably be on Veloflex or Corsa Control. What I'd like out of tubeless is a good tire for fast and dry days (with a decent chance of including gravel).
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

The Corsa Control G2.0 and Corsa G2.0 are pretty much the exact same tire except the Controls have .4mm thicker tread and aesthetic herringbone/file patterns on the edge.

Whatever you’ve experienced is placebo.

I would routinely hop my rear wheel with GP5Ks installed, whether accelerating out of a corner in a crit or just starting a sprint in a straight line. This is all in the dry...in the wet the GP5Ks are downright atrocious.

What Hexsense says about tread width (it’s tread, not thread) is also bunk. Take any tire and lean it right on down to something unrealistic like 35deg. The sidewall will not touch pavement unless you are running at ridiculously low tire pressure or if you’re trying to run a 23mm tire on something like an ENVE SES 4.5 AR.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

by Weenie


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