Bike MEdia Rant - 2018 Madone SLR Disk 19.2 lbs, ouch!!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:38 am
its pretty lame how all the sudden 7.5kgs is an acceptable weight for a $10K roadbike. we're tracking the car industry here.

and GCN et al pretty much solely exist to push trends by spouting half-truths out of context. wider tires aren't always faster. 1x isn't always better. a 48/10 top gear is no where near as efficient as 50/11. disc brakes are not always better. it's not "only" a half kilo penalty. etc etc etc.

like there's nothing wrong with pushing aero disc bikes, just be real and call a heavy bike heavy.

it's like every car review on crappy electric power steering - "it's not quite as lively as the hyrdraulic racks of old, but its got pretty good feel for what it is!" nooo, it's dead. just say it's dead. don't move the damn goalposts.

You don't have to buy a 7.5kg road bike for $10K. There are plenty of lighter rim/disc brake bikes out there. The media's not hiding the fact that certain aero bikes are porky, the Madone in particular. Oh, I'll take steering by wire over hydraulic any day. It's not like there weren't really crappy hydraulic power steering cars...namely every American car made up through the early 2000s. Perhaps you meant cars without power steering whatsoever??

FactoryMatt
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:50 am
FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:38 am
its pretty lame how all the sudden 7.5kgs is an acceptable weight for a $10K roadbike. we're tracking the car industry here.

and GCN et al pretty much solely exist to push trends by spouting half-truths out of context. wider tires aren't always faster. 1x isn't always better. a 48/10 top gear is no where near as efficient as 50/11. disc brakes are not always better. it's not "only" a half kilo penalty. etc etc etc.

like there's nothing wrong with pushing aero disc bikes, just be real and call a heavy bike heavy.

it's like every car review on crappy electric power steering - "it's not quite as lively as the hyrdraulic racks of old, but its got pretty good feel for what it is!" nooo, it's dead. just say it's dead. don't move the damn goalposts.

You don't have to buy a 7.5kg road bike for $10K. There are plenty of lighter rim/disc brake bikes out there. The media's not hiding the fact that certain aero bikes are porky, the Madone in particular. Oh, I'll take steering by wire over hydraulic any day. It's not like there weren't really crappy hydraulic power steering cars...namely every American car made up through the early 2000s. Perhaps you meant cars without power steering whatsoever??
you are a contrarian to the point your own arguments become incoherent. maybe others have already noticed this and i'm late to the party.

-i know i don't have to buy them. i WOULD, however, appreciate candid journalism that calls it like it is, good or bad.
-steering by wire like tesla or infiniti is different than EPS. the fact there are poor HPS cars in the past is a complete red herring. it's nearly a necessary condition, but by no means a sufficient one. no PS at all? if it's a lotus, yes. a jeep? probably not.

by Weenie


jlok
Posts: 1328
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

You are right, I dislike the journalism nowadays. With that I refuse to support them and stopped reading those so called reviews.

On the other hands, if they still receive continuous support, why would they change their attitude? The readers define the media.
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

ichobi
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

The narrative the brands seems to be pushing for these heavy aero bikes are that weight doesn't matter as much as you think it is even uphill. They have "whitepapers" to back up the claim and all. So in essence they are the one changing the goalpost by shifting your attention to the importance of aero instead of weight. Of course the media doesn't help since they seems to be reporting and comparing the bike within the context of the same category (Madone SLR isn't all that heavy if you compared to let's say a SystemSix instead of the Tarmac). And they would be fair to compare bike within the same category however, what is missing from this new aero disc narrative is how the bike ride.

A light bike will always feel more nimble and agile to throw around. May be it's theoretically slower but I have yet to ride an aero bike that rides like a well made all around bike. The new Venge came closest but still not as agile feeling as the Tarmac. For this reason I will never buy a new gen pure aero bike because I value the characteristics of the all around bike more than straightline speed.

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 am

you are a contrarian to the point your own arguments become incoherent. maybe others have already noticed this and i'm late to the party.

-i know i don't have to buy them. i WOULD, however, appreciate candid journalism that calls it like it is, good or bad.
-steering by wire like tesla or infiniti is different than EPS. the fact there are poor HPS cars in the past is a complete red herring. it's nearly a necessary condition, but by no means a sufficient one. no PS at all? if it's a lotus, yes. a jeep? probably not.

So I'm contrarian for pointing out the following conditions:

1) The media isn't hiding the weights of these bikes.
--> Even a rag as shitty as Road.cc lists the weight of the Madone SLR at the top of their review.
--> Here's a recent review of the Domane at Gran Fondo Cycling...weight mentioned in the first paragraph.
I picked these randomly. Pretty transparent, don't you think?

2) There are plenty of lightweight bikes out there. There are even reasonably light aero/semi-aero bikes!
3) Your car analogy sucks. Some cars suck, some cars own. Some EPS systems suck, some are pretty good. Some HPS systems suck. Some bikes suck, some bikes don't suck. Wow, thanks for clearing everything up.

Lol, okay. You posted three red herrings in your narrative...any more and you'd have a school. Good day.

ichobi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:25 am

A light bike will always feel more nimble and agile to throw around. May be it's theoretically slower but I have yet to ride an aero bike that rides like a well made all around bike. The new Venge came closest but still not as agile feeling as the Tarmac. For this reason I will never buy a new gen pure aero bike because I value the characteristics of the all around bike more than straightline speed.

I recently had a conversation with a former crit national champion. He was interested in how I liked my Madone SLR vs my Emonda SLR since he also swaps between both bikes. I spoke about the little niggles I have with the Madone SLR like it's not as easy to travel with because it has limited fork steer. (I can't slide it into the back of my saloon car with the seats down.) I said it's heavier than the Venge, and I would probably buy that instead if I didn't get a team discount on Trek. He came back with the point that he can ride longer/farther on the Madone SLR because of IsoSpeed and that the Emonda SLR is a bit harsh for him.

Yeah, wider tires could also take the edge off road imperfections, but he has a point. The Madone SLR is more comfortable. It's also silent...it cuts through the wind and since it has no exposed cable housings, there's no flutter/rattle whatsoever. It's a zen experience...a placebo that probably makes me slightly faster. In the end I could tell he favors the Madone SLR and I don't fault him.

FactoryMatt
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:27 am
FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 am

you are a contrarian to the point your own arguments become incoherent. maybe others have already noticed this and i'm late to the party.

-i know i don't have to buy them. i WOULD, however, appreciate candid journalism that calls it like it is, good or bad.
-steering by wire like tesla or infiniti is different than EPS. the fact there are poor HPS cars in the past is a complete red herring. it's nearly a necessary condition, but by no means a sufficient one. no PS at all? if it's a lotus, yes. a jeep? probably not.

So I'm contrarian for pointing out the following conditions:

1) The media isn't hiding the weights of these bikes.
--> Even a rag as shitty as Road.cc lists the weight of the Madone SLR at the top of their review.
--> Here's a recent review of the Domane at Gran Fondo Cycling...weight mentioned in the first paragraph.
I picked these randomly. Pretty transparent, don't you think?

2) There are plenty of lightweight bikes out there. There are even reasonably light aero/semi-aero bikes!
3) Your car analogy sucks. Some cars suck, some cars own. Some EPS systems suck, some are pretty good. Some HPS systems suck. Some bikes suck, some bikes don't suck. Wow, thanks for clearing everything up.

Lol, okay. You posted three red herrings in your narrative...any more and you'd have a school. Good day.

ichobi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:25 am

A light bike will always feel more nimble and agile to throw around. May be it's theoretically slower but I have yet to ride an aero bike that rides like a well made all around bike. The new Venge came closest but still not as agile feeling as the Tarmac. For this reason I will never buy a new gen pure aero bike because I value the characteristics of the all around bike more than straightline speed.

I recently had a conversation with a former crit national champion. He was interested in how I liked my Madone SLR vs my Emonda SLR since he also swaps between both bikes. I spoke about the little niggles I have with the Madone SLR like it's not as easy to travel with because it has limited fork steer. (I can't slide it into the back of my saloon car with the seats down.) I said it's heavier than the Venge, and I would probably buy that instead if I didn't get a team discount on Trek. He came back with the point that he can ride longer/farther on the Madone SLR because of IsoSpeed and that the Emonda SLR is a bit harsh for him.

Yeah, wider tires could also take the edge off road imperfections, but he has a point. The Madone SLR is more comfortable. It's also silent...it cuts through the wind and since it has no exposed cable housings, there's no flutter/rattle whatsoever. It's a zen experience...a placebo that probably makes me slightly faster. In the end I could tell he favors the Madone SLR and I don't fault him.
-neither listed the weight in the cons and one passing line of "a bit portly" doesn't cut it when you're reviewing a 10k bike. its not about whether the objective weight is listed; it's about normalizing five-figure 7.5kg+ bikes.

-you clearly don't know what a red herring is and/or are just projecting. you haven't really made much of an argument other than "some are good some are bad". okay. re power steering, the curves are inverted. most HPS is good, most EPS sucks. they can both be good/bad, however, there is a stronger correlation b/w HPS and good feel than EPS by a sight.

-re your madone anecdote, what does an insulated seat tube have to do with the notion that a lightweight bike tends to have a more agile/nimble feel to it?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:07 am

-neither listed the weight in the cons and one passing line of "a bit portly" doesn't cut it when you're reviewing a 10k bike. its not about whether the objective weight is listed; it's about normalizing five-figure 7.5kg+ bikes.

-you clearly don't know what a red herring is and/or are just projecting. you haven't really made much of an argument other than "some are good some are bad". okay. re power steering, the curves are inverted. most HPS is good, most EPS sucks. they can both be good/bad, however, there is a stronger correlation b/w HPS and good feel than EPS by a sight.

-re your madone anecdote, what does an insulated seat tube have to do with the notion that a lightweight bike tends to have a more agile/nimble feel to it?

Hi, that anecdote wasn't meant for you and again, you're making random inferences for whatever reason. My point was that you can choose which bike makes sense on any given day. For the rider I mentioned, he opts for the Madone SLR even on the spirited/sufferfest group rides because it's more comfortable. He is choosing comfort over "agility" even when the route has some painful kickers.

Both of us own a lightweight/agile bike and an aero bike. Both of us swap between the two regularly. He favors the Madone SLR while I actually favor the Emonda SLR for training just because it's the bike I leave my shallow wheels with 30mm tires on.

As for normalizing 7.5kg bikes. What is intrinsically wrong with that? Disc brakes add around 350g at minimum. Aero bikes come with deeper wheels which are ~150g heavier than shallow wheels for the pair. Integrated cockpits typically weigh ~150g more than an average alloy stem / carbon bar combo. Horses for courses. No need to get all grumpy over choice. Frankly, I’d be angrier if I bought a “733g” 56cm Tarmac SL6 Ultralight that actually weighed 850g.

Have a listen to the latest Marginal Gains podcast with Josh Poertner. He seems to think 1-2lbs differences in bike weight aren't all that important given actual system weights, the positioning of such weight and required energy expenditure to throw a bike around. He thinks GC contenders and climbers should be choosing aero bikes more often than they are. For whatever reason they don't...whether because they are creatures of habit/tradition or they simply want to ride the same setup every time (and there are a couple of stages with key sectors where a couple hundred grams might actually matter.)

LewisK
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:11 pm

by LewisK

I’ve always ridden fairly light bikes, so, aero or not, I really don’t like the idea of riding round on a bike 7.5kg +

A friend of mine recently brought a systemsix himod etap, it was heavy and by the time it had a computer, bottle and saddle bag, it was close to 10kg! No thanks

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6023
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

LewisK wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:36 am
I’ve always ridden fairly light bikes, so, aero or not, I really don’t like the idea of riding round on a bike 7.5kg +

A friend of mine recently brought a systemsix himod etap, it was heavy and by the time it had a computer, bottle and saddle bag, it was close to 10kg! No thanks

It's fair if you say you prefer lighter bikes. It's just silly when others start claiming the bike media are in on some kind of fix. To use another shitty car analogy, just imagine the heavy aero bike as a six-figure GT car. It's porky, but it's still a pleasure to drive/ride. The lightweight bike is the six-figure lightened supercar. It's not important for the reviewer to note that the GT car doesn't slalom as well as the lightweight supercar. It's already implied by the category it occupies.

Also you're adding 2kg in bottles, a computer and toolkit to your lighter bike, are you not? Doesn't that just further illustrate the futility of it all? I weigh 63kg. My computer and mount weight 100g. My bottles, filled, weigh 1.4kg. My emergency kit weighs around 400g. My helmet weighs 300g. My shoes weigh 450g/pair. My kit probably weighs 500g.

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 1014
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:01 am
It's fair if you say you prefer lighter bikes. It's just silly when others start claiming the bike media are in on some kind of fix. To use another shitty car analogy, just imagine the heavy aero bike as a six-figure GT car. It's porky, but it's still a pleasure to drive/ride. The lightweight bike is the six-figure lightened supercar. It's not important for the reviewer to note that the GT car doesn't slalom as well as the lightweight supercar. It's already implied by the category it occupies.
I like this analogy. If you are buying a GT car you are obviously in the market for something that is designed to drive well. Some of the people in this thread are essentially asking why GT car reviews don't have "This car was not designed around the nürburgring" in the first paragraph.

Anyone reading reviews/considering buying a Madone, or any heavy aero disc brake road bike knows that they are making compromises in weight. The bike, regardless of what you would like to argue, is light for its category. In fact, it is pretty much the only bike that occupies that category of comfort aero road bikes.

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Lewn777
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Some of this comes down to how we asess bike weight.

Manufacturers are prone to measure smallest sizes, unpainted bikes not including certain components and then do we include pedals computers and sensors. If we could keep to weighing a bike in medium or 56, with everything except the coumputer as in the 'GCN pro bike check' it would eliminate some of the unhelpful bs weights that are spread around by some manufacturers, which seems why Giant have given up quoting weights. Also we have to consider consumables like tires, tubes, chains and cassettes. For a relatively low price you can easily take hundreds of grams off a mid-range bike by getting lighter consumable parts, but some people can't because of cost or durability issues. For me I want a bike under 7.5kg I just don't really like the way heavier bikes ride.

honeybunner
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:55 pm

by honeybunner

FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:07 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:27 am
FactoryMatt wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 am

you are a contrarian to the point your own arguments become incoherent. maybe others have already noticed this and i'm late to the party.

-i know i don't have to buy them. i WOULD, however, appreciate candid journalism that calls it like it is, good or bad.
-steering by wire like tesla or infiniti is different than EPS. the fact there are poor HPS cars in the past is a complete red herring. it's nearly a necessary condition, but by no means a sufficient one. no PS at all? if it's a lotus, yes. a jeep? probably not.

So I'm contrarian for pointing out the following conditions:

1) The media isn't hiding the weights of these bikes.
--> Even a rag as shitty as Road.cc lists the weight of the Madone SLR at the top of their review.
--> Here's a recent review of the Domane at Gran Fondo Cycling...weight mentioned in the first paragraph.
I picked these randomly. Pretty transparent, don't you think?

2) There are plenty of lightweight bikes out there. There are even reasonably light aero/semi-aero bikes!
3) Your car analogy sucks. Some cars suck, some cars own. Some EPS systems suck, some are pretty good. Some HPS systems suck. Some bikes suck, some bikes don't suck. Wow, thanks for clearing everything up.

Lol, okay. You posted three red herrings in your narrative...any more and you'd have a school. Good day.

ichobi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:25 am

A light bike will always feel more nimble and agile to throw around. May be it's theoretically slower but I have yet to ride an aero bike that rides like a well made all around bike. The new Venge came closest but still not as agile feeling as the Tarmac. For this reason I will never buy a new gen pure aero bike because I value the characteristics of the all around bike more than straightline speed.

I recently had a conversation with a former crit national champion. He was interested in how I liked my Madone SLR vs my Emonda SLR since he also swaps between both bikes. I spoke about the little niggles I have with the Madone SLR like it's not as easy to travel with because it has limited fork steer. (I can't slide it into the back of my saloon car with the seats down.) I said it's heavier than the Venge, and I would probably buy that instead if I didn't get a team discount on Trek. He came back with the point that he can ride longer/farther on the Madone SLR because of IsoSpeed and that the Emonda SLR is a bit harsh for him.

Yeah, wider tires could also take the edge off road imperfections, but he has a point. The Madone SLR is more comfortable. It's also silent...it cuts through the wind and since it has no exposed cable housings, there's no flutter/rattle whatsoever. It's a zen experience...a placebo that probably makes me slightly faster. In the end I could tell he favors the Madone SLR and I don't fault him.
-neither listed the weight in the cons and one passing line of "a bit portly" doesn't cut it when you're reviewing a 10k bike. its not about whether the objective weight is listed; it's about normalizing five-figure 7.5kg+ bikes.

-you clearly don't know what a red herring is and/or are just projecting. you haven't really made much of an argument other than "some are good some are bad". okay. re power steering, the curves are inverted. most HPS is good, most EPS sucks. they can both be good/bad, however, there is a stronger correlation b/w HPS and good feel than EPS by a sight.

-re your madone anecdote, what does an insulated seat tube have to do with the notion that a lightweight bike tends to have a more agile/nimble feel to it?
Listing the weight is as close to "calling it as it is" as it gets. Before you make any statements about "calling it as it is" you should come to the understanding that "as it is" isn't necessarily the same as your opinion.

FactoryMatt
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

honeybunner wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:00 pm
Listing the weight is as close to "calling it as it is" as it gets. Before you make any statements about "calling it as it is" you should come to the understanding that "as it is" isn't necessarily the same as your opinion.
That bikes have gotten heavier and more expensive isnt subjective.

That bike journalists, even more than auto journalists, line up to push the latest trend with very little comparison or qualification is also fairly objective.

It is what it is, just calling it out. I bought an overweight aero bike so im not hating on the bikes per se. Just hating on GCN et al. pushing half truths without context on gullible freds. Im going to be slower up my local 6% climb. No amount of aero is going to change that, sorry.

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cyclespeed
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

Maybe the maths says I should be on an aero bike up to 6% gradients, but I just don't believe it.

I am in and out of the saddle all the time on a climb like this and my aerodynamics will be all over the place. I am not going faster than 20kmh on a 4km + climb.

So I will stick with my SL6 all day long thanks.

(And don't even get me started on going DOWN the hill!)

FactoryMatt
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:01 am

It's fair if you say you prefer lighter bikes. It's just silly when others start claiming the bike media are in on some kind of fix. To use another shitty car analogy, just imagine the heavy aero bike as a six-figure GT car. It's porky, but it's still a pleasure to drive/ride. The lightweight bike is the six-figure lightened supercar. It's not important for the reviewer to note that the GT car doesn't slalom as well as the lightweight supercar. It's already implied by the category it occupies.
They absolutely are in on a fix. If the hype cycle doesnt continue, the bike industry stagnates. Mtb: 26 to 29 to 27.5 back to 29 and next probably mullet 27.5/29ers. They have to come up with trends to keep that bike turnover going. Its not immoral, let's just stop pretending it doesn't influence journalism. If jason cammissa calls the 992 911 heavy, he won't get invited to the next junket in southern france.

Except that lightweight sports cars dont exist anymore outside of maybe the miata. That's the point. Theres heavy and heavier because public demand is conditioned. Even the evora is 3100lbs. They make you *think* 3400lbs is a lightweight, but its not. What is the 992? A GT or a lwsc?
Last edited by FactoryMatt on Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.

by Weenie


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