Bike MEdia Rant - 2018 Madone SLR Disk 19.2 lbs, ouch!!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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DucHunter
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:56 am

by DucHunter

It's an aero bike and I live in Florida so it’s not that big a deal. Still I am growing VERY tired of OEM's saying their bikes are "light weight" when they are not at all. Same goes for much of the "in the tank" bike media. I am sorry but there is nothing "light weight" about any road bike in a 60cm that weighs more than similarly sized hardtail MTB's. By contrast my Gen 1 Cannondale Evo Ultimate (super light bike I know) was under 14lbs as built, and not with all crazy light parts.

My Madone is a PJ1 build, all Ultegra Di2 R8000, Garmin Vector 3 pedals, Enve 4.5AR rims on King R45 Ceramic hubs, and Vittoria Corsa 2.0 28mm tires (tubeless), Bontrager RXL bottle cages, and a Bontrager Montrose Carbon saddle. It's an amazing bike, super-fast, and I love it.). Light weight, it is CLEARLY not. It’s not built with the lightest parts (going to Dura-Ace would shave about 200g), Enve 5.6’s though would only shave a few grams. It’s much heavier than the Cervelo S3 Disk that preceded it, and the S5 that preceded that. It’s even heavier than my 61CM Cannondale SuperX (Ultegra Di2), when that bike was wearing the same wheels and Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless. What gives?!

Bikes I have had and their weights
  • 2012 Trek Speed Concept PJ Spartacus (L), Di2, Bontrager Aeolus 9 tubies, Quarq/SRAM crank (17lbs)
    2017 Cervelo S3D (58), SRAM Etap, Quarq Power Meeter, Enve 5.6/King R45 Ceramic (18.2lbs)
    2017 Cannondale SuperX (61cm), Ultegra 8k Di2 Disk, Enve 4.5AR/King R45 Ceramic, Schwalbe Pro 1 28mm, Cannondale Si Quarq Crank, Carbon cages, 45mm Deda Drop Bars (Carbon) & Alu Stem, XTR MTB Pedals (18.6lbs)
    2014 Seven SLX Custom, Campy Super Record EPS Rim Brake, Zipp 303 Tubies w/R45 Ceramics, Fizik Kurve Saddle, Cannondale Si Quarq Zipp Carbon bars/stem, Zipp carbon cages (16.2lbs)
    2012 Cannondale Evo Ultimate (60cm), RAM Red 10 spd (remember that lovely groupo), Cannondale Si Crank with a Quarq power meter, Zipp 303 Firecrest Tubbies with Chris King R45 Ceramic hubs, King Ceramic BB, Look Keo pedals, Zipp Carbon bottle cages, and a Fizik Antares Carbon Saddle.
The new Madone is 2.2lbs heavier than a 7 year old Trek Speed Concept? Yeah one had tubies and one is a disk tubeless, but that’s not progress. LOL! The Madone is .8lb heavier than a 2 year old carbon gravel bike using the same wheels (SuperX)?? The Madone is 3lbs heavier than a carbon/Ti lugged custom built frame (yea the Seven has tubies, and older Super Record ESP).

It just amazes me that “everyone” in the bike media calls many of the new bikes, the Madone included, “light weight,” as do the OEM’s. Yes aero bikes are never going to be as light as bikes that are not pure aero bikes. The new Evo though seems to be about 10 watts slower in the wind than the SystemSix (on the same wheels) and my Madone, yet it builds up to more than 3lbs lighter with similar equipment. 1,361g lighter for a cost of 10 watts? Ouch.

Well that’s my rant. Love the bike, don’t mind the weight in Florida, but DAM! If I still lived in Nor Cal I would not be on an aero bike….I don’t think.

by Weenie


flying
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

Drink the Bike Media's "Aero is where its at & weight no longer matters" Kool-aide it is all the rage now :thumbup:

raisinberry777
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:09 am

by raisinberry777

DucHunter wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:42 am
It just amazes me that “everyone” in the bike media calls many of the new bikes, the Madone included, “light weight,” as do the OEM’s.
Sorry, but I have to call BS on this - at least for the cycling media. Here's the first five reviews that came up on Google.

BikeRadar

No mention regarding the weight at all, except for the wheels, described as 'light for their depth'.

Cycling Weekly
The Trek Madone SLR 9 Disc Weight-wise we’re looking at around 1,000g for a 56cm frameset according to Trek and my size small 52cm complete is 7.5kg on our scales, which is competitive for an aero bike and is in large part thanks to the use of the high-end and much respected OCLV 700 carbon, the American brand’s highest-grade carbon – although there are lighter aero bikes out there.
So not calling it lightweight - just competitive for an aero bike, and noting that there is lighter out there.

Gran Fondo
Because of the relatively high weight, the Madone lacks a certain liveliness off the mark, but still accelerates nimbly in bunch-sprints and out of corners. The Madone is an efficient climber too, provided you’re not chasing a KOM on really harsh gradients, though that’s undoubtedly due to the somewhat heavier system weight.
Fairly negative on the weight there.

Road.cc
But it doesn't feel quite as snappy at lower speeds, out of tight corners, and the weight holds it back on steeper gradients.

...

All the parts build up to a 7.7kg weight for the size 56cm bike tested. For comparison, the Specialized S-Works Venge in the same size and with similar parts tickled the scales to 7.15kg, so the Madone is carrying a bit of timber.
Again, pretty negative on the weight.

Cycling Tips
But is the Madone SLR fast? And is it light? I can only objectively confirm the latter, as my 52cm sample weighed 7.70kg (16.98lb) without pedals, but with cages — not far off from the claimed figures, but still within the ballpark given the thick coats of paint (and paint is surprisingly heavy).
Although reviewer James Huang clarified this in the comments.
Sorry, that may not have been the best choice of wording. What I should have said was that I can only confirm the weight, not that it was unusually light.

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

DucHunter wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:42 am
It's an aero bike and I live in Florida so it’s not that big a deal. Still I am growing VERY tired of OEM's saying their bikes are "light weight" when they are not at all. Same goes for much of the "in the tank" bike media. I am sorry but there is nothing "light weight" about any road bike in a 60cm that weighs more than similarly sized hardtail MTB's. By contrast my Gen 1 Cannondale Evo Ultimate (super light bike I know) was under 14lbs as built, and not with all crazy light parts.

My Madone is a PJ1 build, all Ultegra Di2 R8000, Garmin Vector 3 pedals, Enve 4.5AR rims on King R45 Ceramic hubs, and Vittoria Corsa 2.0 28mm tires (tubeless), Bontrager RXL bottle cages, and a Bontrager Montrose Carbon saddle. It's an amazing bike, super-fast, and I love it.). Light weight, it is CLEARLY not. It’s not built with the lightest parts (going to Dura-Ace would shave about 200g), Enve 5.6’s though would only shave a few grams. It’s much heavier than the Cervelo S3 Disk that preceded it, and the S5 that preceded that. It’s even heavier than my 61CM Cannondale SuperX (Ultegra Di2), when that bike was wearing the same wheels and Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless. What gives?!

Bikes I have had and their weights
  • 2012 Trek Speed Concept PJ Spartacus (L), Di2, Bontrager Aeolus 9 tubies, Quarq/SRAM crank (17lbs)
    2017 Cervelo S3D (58), SRAM Etap, Quarq Power Meeter, Enve 5.6/King R45 Ceramic (18.2lbs)
    2017 Cannondale SuperX (61cm), Ultegra 8k Di2 Disk, Enve 4.5AR/King R45 Ceramic, Schwalbe Pro 1 28mm, Cannondale Si Quarq Crank, Carbon cages, 45mm Deda Drop Bars (Carbon) & Alu Stem, XTR MTB Pedals (18.6lbs)
    2014 Seven SLX Custom, Campy Super Record EPS Rim Brake, Zipp 303 Tubies w/R45 Ceramics, Fizik Kurve Saddle, Cannondale Si Quarq Zipp Carbon bars/stem, Zipp carbon cages (16.2lbs)
    2012 Cannondale Evo Ultimate (60cm), RAM Red 10 spd (remember that lovely groupo), Cannondale Si Crank with a Quarq power meter, Zipp 303 Firecrest Tubbies with Chris King R45 Ceramic hubs, King Ceramic BB, Look Keo pedals, Zipp Carbon bottle cages, and a Fizik Antares Carbon Saddle.
The new Madone is 2.2lbs heavier than a 7 year old Trek Speed Concept? Yeah one had tubies and one is a disk tubeless, but that’s not progress. LOL! The Madone is .8lb heavier than a 2 year old carbon gravel bike using the same wheels (SuperX)?? The Madone is 3lbs heavier than a carbon/Ti lugged custom built frame (yea the Seven has tubies, and older Super Record ESP).

It just amazes me that “everyone” in the bike media calls many of the new bikes, the Madone included, “light weight,” as do the OEM’s. Yes aero bikes are never going to be as light as bikes that are not pure aero bikes. The new Evo though seems to be about 10 watts slower in the wind than the SystemSix (on the same wheels) and my Madone, yet it builds up to more than 3lbs lighter with similar equipment. 1,361g lighter for a cost of 10 watts? Ouch.

Well that’s my rant. Love the bike, don’t mind the weight in Florida, but DAM! If I still lived in Nor Cal I would not be on an aero bike….I don’t think.
The negatives with a higher weight is that the bike lose it's snappiness. On the other hand it might iron out vibrations and run more stabile.
I have a ti/carbon frameset - this is really heavy (aka not snappy at all)!

Not sure i would expect "light" weight from a larger size aero bike with custom paint work.
Do you have any pictures of the bike?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

DucHunter
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:56 am

by DucHunter

Well I guess I am too old school, or an outlier all together. My whole point was a carbon bike that is over 19lbs in a 60cm, one that weighs as much as a similarly high end hardtail MTB should be written up as heavy. A new aero road bike that is 2.2lbs heavier than the same companies 7 year old TT Super Bike, which are tyalically a lot heavier than their road counterparts, should be given a hard time too. It should maybe even be classified as a fast tank. Yet we hear nothing very negative about them at all (inspite of Mr Raisinberry777's comments above). Especailly considering that competative bikes are all lighter by a fair bit. I guess y'all think +19lbs for a high end road bike is totally cool, aero or not.

How many watts of aero woudl you give up to drop poundage? As I said above, -3lbs for +10 Watts?


Totally agree with the snappy-ness comment. The Madone is not unsnappy for me, but I can put out a lot of power to (+1,000 Watts) jump across a gap (holding that for a long time is a stiff story). My guess is we will either see these bikes get a lot lighter soon, or they will go the way of teh Dodo Bird in favor of bikes like the new EVO/Tarmac/F12/R5 that are within 10 watts aero-wise, but weight a lot less.

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Noctiluxx
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Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

Your Garmin pedals, Ultegra hydraulic groupset, Enve 4.5 AR's, 28mm tubeless tires with sealant, 60cm frame, are all moderately heavy. My 2019 Madone SLR (52cm) Rim Brake with DA 9150, XXX 6 wheels, Conti 5000 25mm (clinchers), Speedplay Zero Ti pedals, Tube bottle cages with Bontrager XXX saddle comes in at 16.0 lbs.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2019 Giant Revolt Advanced 0

anykarthik
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:37 pm

by anykarthik

I ended up at 17.5lbs for a 54cm Venge Pro (Ultegra Di2) with Speedplay Cromo pedals, Syncros cages, Selle Smp Glider saddle, stock Garmin mount, all spacers installed and Hutchinson tubeless tires (25f, 28r)

Not a "lightweight" bike, but plenty light enough for me. Not sure the Tarmac Pro Disc similarly spec'd would be too much lighter - maybe 0.5 to 1 pound?

The Madone was always reviewed as a heavy bike (all those Isospeed bits) - I don't think anyone claimed it was light. That said, you can get similarly aero (Venge) at a much lighter weight (see above), but I suspect you Madone riders are significantly more comfortable.

Mep
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 4:11 pm

by Mep

The media is always misrepresenting things, that part is not new. But definitely not all is lost: my Madone rim brake comes in at 13lbs with tubular wheels. Not bad but certainly heavier than my SS Evo.

mdeth1313
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by mdeth1313

flying wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:05 am
Drink the Bike Media's "Aero is where its at & weight no longer matters" Kool-aide it is all the rage now :thumbup:
Yup, until you hit that first, long upgrade, it's all good.
Speedplay is the devil!

gwilson
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:41 am
Location: Canada

by gwilson

Noctiluxx wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:04 am
Your Garmin pedals, Ultegra hydraulic groupset, Enve 4.5 AR's, 28mm tubeless tires with sealant, 60cm frame, are all moderately heavy. My 2019 Madone SLR (52cm) Rim Brake with DA 9150, XXX 6 wheels, Conti 5000 25mm (clinchers), Speedplay Zero Ti pedals, Tube bottle cages with Bontrager XXX saddle comes in at 16.0 lbs.
My bike is very similar to his and still noticeably lighter. I have a 60cm Madone SLR 6 disc (Ultegra mechanical) with Bontrager XXX 4 wheels. Everything completely stock with two bottle cages, garmin mount, and light mount I weighed it at 18.25 lbs. Previously had a SystemSix Dura-Ace which was almost the exact same weight but significantly more uncomfortable, so I thought the weight was actually pretty good for a 60cm comfortable disc aero bike with ultegra.

ryanw
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by ryanw

Ok, it’s not a full aero bike, but I just built up a 61cm S-Works SL6 Disc with R8070 and CLX50s, that came out at 7.45kg with pedals and cages etc.

Nothing exotic on it at all. Heavy saddle, cockpit etc.
'16 Cervelo S5 - 6,650g RIP
'17 Focus Mares Force 1 - 7,170g
'19 Cervelo S5 Disc - 7,460g

IG: RhinosWorkshop - Check it out for all my custom builds :thumbup:

:!: Ride Southern Spain Cycling Holidays *£445 for 7 Nights* :!:

by Weenie


Hexsense
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

DucHunter wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:59 pm
How many watts of aero woudl you give up to drop poundage? As I said above, -3lbs for +10 Watts?
3lbs is likely less than 2% of total system weight for most people. (me for example, human+bike is around 170lbs. extra 3lbs is 1.7%).

at slow 20mph, generally people solo at around 180 watts (depend on body size and position). You need to save only 3.6 watts at this speed to save more than 2% of total drag.


And i'm not saying weight related drag = wind related drag either. Generally wind related drag >>>> weight related drag. According to http://bikecalculator.com/. Even on 6% grade, 180 watts with weight of 170lbs is still slower than 183.6 watts (180watts actual +3.6w free watts) at 173lbs. So you need something steeper for 2% of lower total weight to outpace 2% of total aero drag.

I'll even take 10lbs extra weight for 3watts drag reduction (at 20mph) after all these calculation.

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