BB90 installation on a new Emonda SLR frame

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Ride2500
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:13 pm

by Ride2500

Hi,

waiting for my new frame I have been reading a lot about creaking problems and different installation methodes for BB90 (dry, grease, different Loctite compounds)
With the frame I have ordered the standard BB90 Trek steel bearing kit. Which methode would you recommend for the intial installation? Just go with grease and hope for the best (don't try to fix it if it ain't broken) or already use Loctite from the start to be on the safe side? I am little bit worried about getting the bearings back out again after installing them with Loctite and there might also be a warranty issue.

On https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/news/t ... s-solved-1
they recommend to use Loctite 609 only but in some threads on this forum I found the information that it would not work without the proper primer. Any opinions on that subject?

Thanks for any inputs. :D

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nickf
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

I used 609 on my checkpoint and just cleaned the shell with alcohol first. No noises. I'm sure the primer helps but I have never used it myself.

by Weenie


alcatraz
Posts: 2103
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

609 is very strong. 641 is better, doesn't glue as "permanently" as 609.

Don't use grease. Either nothing or 641/609 (+primer, personally i don't use)

609 i'd only use if it's creaking already.

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Calnago
Posts: 8346
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

That’s a pretty good video overall. I’ve described that exact process before but your trek will be new so just use a good amount of grease in the shell. Trek’s BB90 is a slip fit, not a “press”, or “interference” fit. The bearings can often be pushed in by hand, but use a proper press, unless Campy, to ensure the bearings get fully seated in their bores. I think the vast majority of BB90 issues that occur are because of installation issues and the fact that, if the bearings aren’t fully seated, AND the right amount of preload isn’t used, then the whole thing is loose and the bearings can just fret away at the shell, eventually causing it to go out of round and creak. This is particularly true for Shimano installs where with BB90 you end up with essentially two slipfit surfaces, the inner bearing race on the spindle and the outer bearing race in the BB90 shell.
Using Loctite, either 609 if the fit is still pretty good, or loctite 638 (much thicker) if the fit is really loose should be a last resort and certainly not needed when new. Also, you won’t hear any of that “creaking” when pressing in new greased bearings. That lack of noise by itself does not mean it’s too loose on its own, which is something you might take away from that video. You’re only going to hear that “cracking” sound when pressing bearings in if you’re using the retaining compound on a squeaky clean bearing bore. And definitely use the primer as it won’t set up properly on carbon (inactive) without it.
Install it right, with grease, and you should be just fine. After you ride it, check to make sure the crank is spinning freely but that there is zero lateral play. It’s quite easy to not get the preload right with a Shimano setup on BB90. Just because the little clip drops into its slot on the crank doesn’t mean it’s as far as it needs to go. I always tighten it enough so that I can feel the crank start to bind a bit when you turn it, then I know I’m there, and back it off a teensy bit.

But that kit that BB Infinite is selling looks to be a good product for those that have a problematic worn BB90 install. I didn’t know they made one. I guess it comes with a couple bearings and a small amount of retaining compound, which would be good for a home user since even a small container of the retaining compound can be quite expensive and way more than you’ll ever need.
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Ride2500
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:13 pm

by Ride2500

Thank you very much for all replies. I think I will go with grease as suggested. Getting the preload right seems to be a major factor to avoid future problems. Read about that before - so I will extra care on that subject.

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

As Calnago mentions, those bearings need to be pressed in further and tighter than you probably think they should be. Just keep going with that press. You aren't going to crack the frame. Even a good number of Trek mechanics don't get these in far enough. For the initial installation I would use grease in the shell.

''''''''''and I say "initial installation" as at some point you will be installing version 2's in those bores, and at some point after that it may be going back to Trek to have the bores re-laid.
Never cheer before you know who is winning

Methodical
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:40 pm

by Methodical

I went with the Ninja BB90 bottom bracket kit. I like it because you screw the 2 housing together with the installed bearings. Smooth and quiet.

If you go with the traditional install, just grease the frame where the bearings sit and press them in straight and flush until they can go no further and don't try to over install them or you could damage the frame. That's it, nothing special with the install.


https://www.amazon.com/Token-Products-B ... way&sr=8-1
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

Trek Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg
'12 Trek Madone (Black) - 6.96kg
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Methodical wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:23 pm
I went with the Ninja BB90 bottom bracket kit. I like it because you screw the 2 housing together with the installed bearings. Smooth and quiet.

If you go with the traditional install, just grease the frame where the bearings sit and press them in straight and flush until they can go no further and don't try to over install them or you could damage the frame. That's it, nothing special with the install.

The Token Ninja necessarily uses smaller bearings and that is a durability concern. They also don't seem to sell replacement bearings, so you're stuck buying new thread-together cups every time.

SilentDrone
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

by SilentDrone

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Methodical wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:23 pm
I went with the Ninja BB90 bottom bracket kit. I like it because you screw the 2 housing together with the installed bearings. Smooth and quiet.

If you go with the traditional install, just grease the frame where the bearings sit and press them in straight and flush until they can go no further and don't try to over install them or you could damage the frame. That's it, nothing special with the install.

The Token Ninja necessarily uses smaller bearings and that is a durability concern. They also don't seem to sell replacement bearings, so you're stuck buying new thread-together cups every time.
Sure, but at 49 bucks it’s not too expensive to replace ever couple of years. But I have no experience with the ninja so I couldn’t say whether it’s a good product or not.

I’m very interested in this topic. I’ve got a 2018 Domane SLR with almost 5k kilometers on it that is creaking slightly when I stand on the pedals. Just had the trek shop replace the bearings, we’ll see. I’ve had no problems with BB30 on a couple of mtn bikes that I’ve maintained myself. But since this is a P1 build I figure I’ll have the shop handle the BB just in case it needs to go back under warranty at some point in the future.


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SilentDrone
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

by SilentDrone

Calnago wrote:That’s a pretty good video overall. I’ve described that exact process before but your trek will be new so just use a good amount of grease in the shell. Trek’s BB90 is a slip fit, not a “press”, or “interference” fit. The bearings can often be pushed in by hand, but use a proper press, unless Campy, to ensure the bearings get fully seated in their bores. I think the vast majority of BB90 issues that occur are because of installation issues and the fact that, if the bearings aren’t fully seated, AND the right amount of preload isn’t used, then the whole thing is loose and the bearings can just fret away at the shell, eventually causing it to go out of round and creak. This is particularly true for Shimano installs where with BB90 you end up with essentially two slipfit surfaces, the inner bearing race on the spindle and the outer bearing race in the BB90 shell.
Using Loctite, either 609 if the fit is still pretty good, or loctite 638 (much thicker) if the fit is really loose should be a last resort and certainly not needed when new. Also, you won’t hear any of that “creaking” when pressing in new greased bearings. That lack of noise by itself does not mean it’s too loose on its own, which is something you might take away from that video. You’re only going to hear that “cracking” sound when pressing bearings in if you’re using the retaining compound on a squeaky clean bearing bore. And definitely use the primer as it won’t set up properly on carbon (inactive) without it.
Install it right, with grease, and you should be just fine. After you ride it, check to make sure the crank is spinning freely but that there is zero lateral play. It’s quite easy to not get the preload right with a Shimano setup on BB90. Just because the little clip drops into its slot on the crank doesn’t mean it’s as far as it needs to go. I always tighten it enough so that I can feel the crank start to bind a bit when you turn it, then I know I’m there, and back it off a teensy bit.

But that kit that BB Infinite is selling looks to be a good product for those that have a problematic worn BB90 install. I didn’t know they made one. I guess it comes with a couple bearings and a small amount of retaining compound, which would be good for a home user since even a small container of the retaining compound can be quite expensive and way more than you’ll ever need.
Excellent input. Thanks for sharing your expertise, Calnago.


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

If it were me, I would try the following in order.

1) Retaining compound
2) 37.1mm OD bearings with retaining compound
3) Token Ninja
4) Send back to Trek to repair the bores

Methodical
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:40 pm

by Methodical

TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:28 pm
Methodical wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:23 pm
I went with the Ninja BB90 bottom bracket kit. I like it because you screw the 2 housing together with the installed bearings. Smooth and quiet.

If you go with the traditional install, just grease the frame where the bearings sit and press them in straight and flush until they can go no further and don't try to over install them or you could damage the frame. That's it, nothing special with the install.

The Token Ninja necessarily uses smaller bearings and that is a durability concern. They also don't seem to sell replacement bearings, so you're stuck buying new thread-together cups every time.
I totally disagree with you. Please explain to me why I am stuck with buying their bearings.

Also, I disagree with the durability concern. Has their been any reported failures or are you just making this up? I'm using the bearings and have no issues what so ever, from experience and not hearsay.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

Trek Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg
'12 Trek Madone (Black) - 6.96kg
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Methodical wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:38 pm

I totally disagree with you. Please explain to me why I am stuck with buying their bearings.

Also, I disagree with the durability concern. Has their been any reported failures or are you just making this up? I'm using the bearings and have no issues what so ever, from experience and not hearsay.

A BB90 bore has a diameter of 37mm. The thread-together cups take up some of that diameter so typical 2437 bearings cannot be used in those cups. Either the outer race has been machined down to questionable thickness or smaller balls than 5/32" are being used. Others have had issues with 4130 bearings used in BB86 -> 30mm spindle situations, so I imagine the same endurance issues would crop up here.

hambini
Posts: 480
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:13 am
Location: Bristol UK / Cologne, Germany

by hambini

TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:22 pm
Methodical wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:38 pm

I totally disagree with you. Please explain to me why I am stuck with buying their bearings.

Also, I disagree with the durability concern. Has their been any reported failures or are you just making this up? I'm using the bearings and have no issues what so ever, from experience and not hearsay.

A BB90 bore has a diameter of 37mm. The thread-together cups take up some of that diameter so typical 2437 bearings cannot be used in those cups. Either the outer race has been machined down to questionable thickness or smaller balls than 5/32" are being used. Others have had issues with 4130 bearings used in BB86 -> 30mm spindle situations, so I imagine the same endurance issues would crop up here.
+1, agree with Tobin. Do it at your peril.

Have a look at the bearing size difference on the third picture and you will see what Tobin is referring to

https://www.hambini.com/blog/post/bb86- ... -crankset/
Hambini Aeronautical Engineer, Ex NASA, ex Lockheed - views expressed are my own...
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I fixed the bottom bracket from hell

by Weenie


Methodical
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:40 pm

by Methodical

Tobin, Hambini, I am fully aware and was fully aware of the sizing when I purchased the bottom bracket bearings and had/have no issues or concerns at all using them. I wanted a system where the bearing were housed in cups and tied together within the frame. I did not want to have the same problem I had with my '12 Madone where I am not required to use oversize bearings. There were no other companies making such a unit, so for me, the Ninja fit the bill.

Also, Tobin, just to be clear, I am not stuck with the Ninja bearings as you stated. If I choose, I can remove the Ninja bottom bracket and just install any regular ole' bearing I choose. Tobin, do you happen to have a link to the article where the owner(s) had problems with the Ninja bottom bracket? I'd like to see what problems they had for comparison purposes with the problems that have been reported with standard bearings.

If I have any issues, I will definitely report them here for all the see, but I am not worried at all, no more than I am using carbon bars, which is nilch.

Hambini do you have any comparison between the BB90s bearings.
Last edited by Methodical on Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic"

Trek Emonda SLR (Rage Red) - 6.27kg
'12 Trek Madone (Black) - 6.96kg
Fujee Espree (Maroon) - 11.02kg

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