Ribble/Campagnolo disc bike. A die hard rim braker's first disc brake build!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

c60rider wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:28 pm
Thank you I know a lot of the issues have now gone and was related purely to the build up of it, but it's the noise of the brakes more than anything where the problem is. I did spend quite some time following the Sram bedding in process amongst others. I even did it on my rollers with the brake held on for periods to melt pad substance onto the disc (as that's basically what you're trying to do as with new car discs/pads). It's noticeable that there was a slow change to the surface so I will just do this a bit more. It does seem like deglazing the discs is something that will help.
Re bedding in, just find a 20% hill and hammer the crap out of the brakes a bunch of times. That oughta do it.

Noise when wet? A signifcant percentage of disc systems make a lot of noise. There are two solutions, I use them both: one, get used to it, and two, hope it doesn't rain. I have one bike that is near silent in the dry, but if I ride on roads that are the slightest bit damp, even if it is sunny out, the brakes howl. A hundred meters down the road and if the surface is dry no noise. Another damp spot and cover your ears. Super weird. Of course if it is proper raining it's noisy all the time. Watch any pro race and if there is ambient sound in the broadcast you will hear the squealing on wet days. World Cup cyclocross is pretty loud when it's wet. Not helpful - sorry. Some guys swear by certain pads but the same pads that are quiet for some might be loud for others with different rotors, calipers, frame, wheels, etc. It's a harmonic thing. Some clever engineer will come up with a universal solution soon.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

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Sheesh... you’ve had some trials and tribulations... I remember your thread about the rear derailleur that just blew up. The sentiments you describe are not new, and just the other day in some thread I wrote that if one were going to buy a disc bike to make sure the dealer faces the mounts before leaving. And if they say it doesn’t need it, or worse, they don’t even have the proper tools to do it, then you should find another dealer. I really think it’s irresponsible of any dealer to be selling disc brakes bikes and not be equipped with the tools to properly face the mounts.
So, after it was faced could you put a straight edge across those mounts without that gap? That gap was certainly more than a layer or two of paint.

But let’s talk about your front derailleur setup. Holy smokes, is that even operable like that? Especially when dropping from large ring to small, with the cable catching like that I would think it gets hung up. You do know there’s a special washer that replaces the one where the cable attaches to the front derailleur for that specific situation that you illustrate, right? It doesn’t look like you have it installed. Also, you don’t have the inline adjuster installed that I can tell. Are you sure it’s even set up correctly? When in the large ring, can you shift through all cogs cleanly without the chain ever rubbing the front derailleur and without touching it. Because once on the big ring that’s how it should be... no need to touch it again until you want to shift back down to the small ring, regardless of which cog at the back you’re on. I get that it may be that the exit hole for the front derailleur cable through the BB may be off, but I’m not entirely sure it’s not a setup issue either when I see that pic.
Anyway, you’re getting there I suppose. But yes, frustrating process it sounds like.
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by Weenie


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Miller
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by Miller

Avoiding all questions of rim vs disc, I'd like to hear more about how that ÂŁ350 disc mount facing tool is used, and the before and after aspects? As this seems to be an area the retail industry has not got to grips with.

c60rider
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by c60rider

Calnago wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:52 am
Image
Sheesh... you’ve had some trials and tribulations... I remember your thread about the rear derailleur that just blew up. The sentiments you describe are not new, and just the other day in some thread I wrote that if one were going to buy a disc bike to make sure the dealer faces the mounts before leaving. And if they say it doesn’t need it, or worse, they don’t even have the proper tools to do it, then you should find another dealer. I really think it’s irresponsible of any dealer to be selling disc brakes bikes and not be equipped with the tools to properly face the mounts.
So, after it was faced could you put a straight edge across those mounts without that gap? That gap was certainly more than a layer or two of paint.

Looking at the frame originally I believe it was probably faced, masked off and then painted. But when placing the caliper onto the mounts you could see it was resting on the paint on the one edge. Thought I'd got a picture somewhere and here it is. This is the side on view of the front fork with paint being the issue on this mount. The earlier picture with the allen key resting on it was the rear. The rear one just hadn't been faced off originally (that's if it even had been before painting) with both mounts even in the same plane. When I faced both there was plenty of paint that came off as well as alloy so it was all a mess. I wasn't going to send it back to Ribble as I've become older and cynical I realise if you need to do something correctly you're probably better off doing it yourself! And when my local Colnago dealer (amongst others) hadn't got a facing tool and just used a file I was left with little choice

Image

But let’s talk about your front derailleur setup. Holy smokes, is that even operable like that? Especially when dropping from large ring to small, with the cable catching like that I would think it gets hung up. You do know there’s a special washer that replaces the one where the cable attaches to the front derailleur for that specific situation that you illustrate, right? It doesn’t look like you have it installed. Also, you don’t have the inline adjuster installed that I can tell. Are you sure it’s even set up correctly? When in the large ring, can you shift through all cogs cleanly without the chain ever rubbing the front derailleur and without touching it. Because once on the big ring that’s how it should be... no need to touch it again until you want to shift back down to the small ring, regardless of which cog at the back you’re on. I get that it may be that the exit hole for the front derailleur cable through the BB may be off, but I’m not entirely sure it’s not a setup issue either when I see that pic.
Anyway, you’re getting there I suppose. But yes, frustrating process it sounds like.
Yes it all works fine! Surprisingly so. I can't say it's perfect or else the cable wouldn't catch on the derailleur but there's definitely no setup problem here. The concern was obviously in the small ring/largest sprocket the cable is resting on the derailleur and when it gets clicked onto the first trim position the cable has more tension put on it to move it across but in this setup it would then take some tension off the cable now it wouldn't be touching against the derailleur. Fortunately it then didn't have any impact on shifting up onto the big ring and it works really well on all sprockets even big/big. I think the key to setting it up correctly was just making sure the derailleur was in the perfect position when changing onto the big ring so that it didn't rub anywhere on the big ring/small sprocket combo. The inline adjuster isn't in as I just don't like the look of it. It only takes a fraction longer to get it set up right and once set up I've found I never need to touch it again. For me they're like the plastic chain guard/spoke protectors on the back of cassettes. I've never forgotten how I was nearly destroyed for turning up on my first racing bike with one of those!! :lol: What it tells me is there's a little bit of tolerance in the system to accommodate frame issues without it impacting on function. I'm interested in the washer as it's an issue I've never come across myself before it's not something I've looked into. Do you have a link for that one?
My immediate thoughts beyond the frame was the fact I wasn't using a H11 chainset with this. I know with 12 Campag just have the one set they say is optimised for both (it must be a tiny compromise between perfect for disc and perfect for rim) but with 11 they did have a specific chainset for disc. I don't know what the actual result meant in terms of chainring position compared with the standard chainset. Did it slightly push the chainrings out? If this was significant enough then it would mean the front derailleur would be further out in it's lowest position maybe enough to stop the cable rub. I'm just guessing here without knowing. Maybe this could have added to the problem but then P2M have always said it works and the same spider still works with 12 rings. But whatever it still functions without any problem it's just an OCD thing that I don't like it that the cable catches

c60rider
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by c60rider

Miller wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:24 am
Avoiding all questions of rim vs disc, I'd like to hear more about how that ÂŁ350 disc mount facing tool is used, and the before and after aspects? As this seems to be an area the retail industry has not got to grips with.
Park have some really good videos on how to set it up and use it for all the various mounts. I certainly spent a couple of weeks looking into my options before I pulled the trigger on purchasing it. It's a frightening price for a tool that I was going to use once but I think as soon as my local dealer said they used a file I realised I would probably need to buy it. As it was going to be a one-off use (though I thought future bikes might be disc ones so it would get used again, I'm now thinking rim brakes will last me forever especially as my near 30 year old Deltas are still going fine!) I wanted to make the moment last :lol: so I set it up several times over a week without cutting anything until I was sure I knew exactly what I was going to do. Having said that there did seem to be a bit of play in the system and still had issues getting both mounts perfectly flat and parallel with each other. I would say they aren't perfect which was a bit disappointing but I'm not going to blame the Park tool for this and put it down to the user. But then I'm not sure what else I could have done to eliminate the play. I would just have been tearing off more and more alloy off the mounts. They're much closer to perfect and the brakes work fine and it's not so sensitive to disc rub anymore. So I'm satisfied with the end result.

mattr
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by mattr

Mr.Gib wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:33 pm
But what at total piece of shit. Shit frame, shit seatpost, and extra shit service from Ribble. You have a lot more patience and tolerance than most. Karma seriously owes you a good turn for this nonsense.
They haven't changed, they were shit 20+ years ago, they lied to a friend of mine (this frame isn't cracked, it's perfect) then told him he'd have to pay to have it shipped back........ he'd already sent them an NDT report showing the X-Ray images of the failed welds (benefits of having in house NDT at work....) and this was the third frame he'd had from them. One had actually come apart, one they admitted it'd cracked.

Didn't touch them for a few years, then a "too good to be true" deal came up. Certainly was, they ignored the customisations i'd asked for (stem length, bar width, crank length, ratios) then lied about that. (shimano don't make a 170mm crank for that groupset, or that size cassette etc etc.) Mostly stuff they had in stock and listed. Ended up costing me another ~20% on their amazing list, i could have got a bike from the LBS, from a reputable manufacturer. Then i'd only have had to walk down the road to swear at them.

Almost as bad as Dave Hinde, but at least they won't offer to fight you over breaches of trading law.

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corky
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by corky

I think the campag brakes have a bite adjuster as well as a lever throw adjuster is this correct? Does the bite adjuster achieve this by altering the pad rotor gap? Thanks

mag
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by mag

As for the washer Calnago mentions - the one used in such cases when the cable touches the FD - it's this one:
https://www.condorcycles.com/products/c ... able-plate
part nr. FD-CE011

Highly recommended!
You can also see it mentioned in their technical manual at page 9
https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/ ... _08_17.pdf

In any case you've done a great job finishing this semi-finished product and turning it into a very nice bike. It cost you a lot of effort, patience and secondary expenses though - that the its total price is now almost incalculable. :-D Hope the result is worth all of that at least and you won't have to get rid of it soon...

c60rider
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by c60rider

mag wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:55 pm
As for the washer Calnago mentions - the one used in such cases when the cable touches the FD - it's this one:
https://www.condorcycles.com/products/c ... able-plate
part nr. FD-CE011

Highly recommended!
You can also see it mentioned in their technical manual at page 9
https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/ ... _08_17.pdf

In any case you've done a great job finishing this semi-finished product and turning it into a very nice bike. It cost you a lot of effort, patience and secondary expenses though - that the its total price is now almost incalculable. :-D Hope the result is worth all of that at least and you won't have to get rid of it soon...
Thanks for that one they always say read the instructions first :lol:
Don't ask me about the final price I don't want to think about it :roll: I could have easily just bought a new rim brake frame along with a new rear mech that I needed and swapped all the components over but it was an opportunity to go disc and if ever I was going to then this was it. The proper test will be this autumn/ winter when it gets used fully and if I can sort the howling discs out. I'll feedback that one over the months when I get to use it regularly.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Hi all
Late to the party on this one, pretty busy of late with very limited time to look at what appears on the Google Alerts ...
A few accumulated points worth talking about though ...

Noise from discs, esp in the wet -

Yes, it happens. However, many of the things that are commonly blamed for it and many of the fixes are more about folklore than they are about good engineering practice.
The basic cause is the same as squeal on road brakes - the fact that a disc passing between two pads is grabbed, released, grabbed, released in a cyclic fashion, which can lead to resonance and squeal. This tendency is increased with less pad contact area and the amount that the noise gets damped by the pads is likewise related to contact area amongst other things.

What you hear is resonance of the disc / wheel system as a whole, so there are internal causes of that noise around pad type, contact and so on, and external ones including disc to wheel fitting and spoke tension.

In the wet, reduced disc / pad friction changes the resonance characteritics of the system so a system that is silent or near-silent in the dry can scream in the wet, though instances of the reverse are very rare (since a wet system rapidly dries with rotor and pad heating).

Working from basics then - the Bora One Disc compatible wheels should not promote braking noise as the spoke tensions are very high (130-150 kgs on the front brake side, approx the same on the rear gear side) and so long as the rotors are fully locked down to the correct torque (and the Campag locking rings are used so that there is correct engagement with wheel and rotor), those areas of concern are pretty much taken care of. AFS / Centrelock, by the way, was selected in part because it apperas less prone to noise than 6 bolt, the locking ring pretty much by definition applying equal pressure all the way around it's circumference, where 6-bolt struggles to do that so easily.

Facing - this is about two things - first, the mounting area needs to be faced so that as much of the caliper as possible is in tight contact with the frame (that's about thermal dumping into the frame and again, controlling resonance) and so that the caliper is perpendicular to the axle - a file can't really do that for you, unless it's wielded by a master craftsman - and even then, a disc facing tool like the Park one (which TBH has it's limitations) will still do a better job as it uses the bolt-through axle as it's mounting point, to assure a properly perpendiclar mount surface.

In just the same way as a rim brake can squeal if the pads are not held against the rim square under braking, a disc brake needs the pads to be flat to the rotor and for both to hit the rotor at the same time, and with as close to the same force as can be arranged - that means accurate facing and accurate caliper setting (and a flat rotor, of course ...)

The Campag pads have a coating on the back of the pad where it interfaces against the piston - using anything additional in this area may compromise that coating or render it to some extent ineffective - but it has two jobs - one is to damp vibration and so resonance, the second is to help reduce heat transfer from rotor via the pad to the piston and thereby the caliper / fluid. That coating was responsible for a hefty part of the two year wait that the market had for the Campag system after early trial versions were spotted in the peloton - so I'd advise against doing anything that might compromise it - we know it works, we tested it in real-world situations as well as the lab for what seemed like forever-and-a-day!

Assuming that the pads / caliper set up is dead right and that the through axles are tight (and it is worth torquing them as different through-axle tightnesses can sometimes change the exact caliper to rotor position), you should have a very close to silent system in the dry. This was genuinely one of the major design objectives, set by Mr Campagnolo himself eight years ago when the disc project first started ... hence the time spent on the backing compound on the pads for instance. Keeping the pads and rotors clean from day to day (obviously you can't go cleaning them mid-ride ... or maybe ... :-D) will help to reduce wet weather noise but to eliminate it is the pot of gold at the rainbow's end ...

Once the pads are bedded, wet weather noise can also be reduced (but not eliminated) by glaze removal with a flat metalworking file that doesn't get used for anything else (thereby avoiding any possible contamination) and thoroughly cleaning the rotors with IPA. Both glaze and surface deposits on the rotors make pad to rotor "slippage" worse so not only does the glazing and surface deposition increase but it also can (depending on exact resonant frequencies) make noise worse as it changes the frequency at which the grab-release cycle occurs ...

Adjustment - lever reach and bite point are independant of each other and bite point adjustment does not change pad-to-rotor spacing or pad rollback. Fill / bleed the system with the bite point set to "short" and we advise the reach adjusters on both levers are set as long as possible, so as to make it easier to dial in the same feel on both brakes after filling / bleeding operations.

Chainline - the differences on the H11 and HO cranksets are changed ring spacing (opened out by 0.8mm) to reduce the chain clatter on the back of the big ring when running small-small gear combos, revised shaping of the back of the big chainring (to assist up- and down-shift with the wider spacing) and new tooth profiles so that entry and exit angles from the chainrings can be wider - hence the inter-compatibility of H11 and HO chainsets (and now 12v too) with disc and rim systems. The chainline is managed on the rings to place it 1mm further out (44.5mm +/-0.5mm rather than 43mm (same tolerances) so providing a compromise between the ideal for 130mm rim and the ideal for 135mm disc rear spacings. The shift outward in the chainline is almost in the middle of the 2.5mm differential that would be needed for total disc compatibility had the rings not been changed and the compromise works better for big rig cross-chaining, where there is a greater tendency for the chain to be pulled off the big chainring towards the inside by chain tension.

Bolt-through - yes, it's a PITA but it keeps the parts of the system better aligned in both set-up terms (esp if a torque wrench is used to tighten the bolt-through axles) as well as increasing the overall rigidity of the wheel / fork or wheel / rear end system.

It is a different braking technique with discs to get the most out of them but as others have noted, in abolute terms it's about the rubber-to-road junction, where effectiveness of a braking system is really governed. And that doesn't change, rim or disc. However, discs do allow drag braking on carbon rims (not recommended with rim brake!) and the same braking force applied at the tyre / tarmac interface is generally gained at lower effort levels at the lever, so there is an increase in accuracy. However, most users don't get anywhere near the limits where the very fine modulation that this allows is really of importance. To some extent rims can also be made lighter (although there is a trade-off in increased spoke counts and in the hub) so peripheral spinning weight, where it has most effect on handling (due to rotational inertia) can be reduced.

HTH
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

graeme_f_k wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:02 am
.... wet weather noise... to eliminate it is the pot of gold at the rainbow's end ...
:unbelievable: So I guess we can all stop worrying about this. Dang.
graeme_f_k wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:02 am
and thoroughly cleaning the rotors with IPA.
Will any IPA work?
Image
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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Leviathan
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by Leviathan

graeme_f_k wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:02 am
Hi all
Late to the party on this one, pretty busy of late with very limited time to look at what appears on the Google Alerts ...
A few accumulated points worth talking about though ...
HTH
An informed and well written post. Please exit this forum, youve no role here as you're getting in the way of the "are disks better than rims" posts we all love to read. :roll:

c60rider
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by c60rider

As usual a really thorough and honest post from Graeme. My setup out the box when first riding it was silent in the dry. The issue is the wet and it seems silent disc brake riding is the currently unobtainable holy grail so for me that's an utter failure. The noise is horrendous and as this is a pure wet weather bike I have to be honest I'm not even sure it's something I can live with. I'll see how it goes over the autumn if it can be dampened down a bit. Sadly no reviews ever mention the horror soundtrack you get in the wet. Funny how nearly every new launch is off in some fancy warm weather place and everything works perfectly. Or is my cynical side thinking that it benefits those in the trade to try and convince us how much better discs are while failing to mention this abomination to get us all to buy new bikes. That helps the business go round. Journalists, manufacturers and so on. Unless we buy new things people start losing their jobs. And if reviewers slated discs with their wet weather noise then it would put people off buying them. And maybe the journalists wouldn't get invited to launches and their publications would go out of business and so on. Not saying it would put everyone off buying them but if the noise they currently make is as good as it gets then I utterly regret buying discs and I would only recommend rim brake riders buying them if you can live with that noise. So fully investigate it! Dry weather performance of discs (stopping power) doesn't appear to be any better than rim brakes. Wet weather performance in theory should be better but the noise they make results in me backing off the braking along with everyone looking round thinking what the hell is wrong with him and that bike? What a disappointment so far. At least one thing I know is there's going to be a Park disc brake facing tool going on ebay in the very near future!! Offers considered!! :lol:

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

I feel for you c60rider. The wet weather noise really is a shame because the braking can be very good. I would urge you not to give up just yet. There is likely some combination of pad and rotor that migh be acceptable in the wet. The other thing to keep in mind that if you do lots of braking (descending etc.), the system heats up, dries and gets quiet. It's worst when you only brake occasionally which unfortunately is most riding situations.

Just wait until you are in a group of 50, all with discs, on a wet day, and you approach a stop sign at the bottom of a hill. The noise will be unbelievable. That day is coming for us all. Pretty bad right now with no more then a quarter of my group on discs.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

For those with squealing disc brakes in the wet. Try SwissStop Disc RS pads. No joke, they are silent in the rain.

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