Tarmac rim brake options no more

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
AW84
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:04 am

by AW84

alexmcm09 wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:09 pm
So this thread comes at an interesting time. Upon replacing my BB bearings recently my LBS discovered my BB shell has worn away so the bearings slip in and out by hand. The shop I bought my Tarmac SL6 Pro from have all but confirmed it's a warranty case and are stripping down the bike to send the frame off to specialized on Monday.

I have the Tarmac Pro in a rim brake version - which Specialized no longer make. Fingers crossed that they have a few frames stored away for warranty claims!
I emailed their support team and was told they set aside a number of bikes (I assume they meant frames) to handle warranty claims. But they are inevitably going to run out of frames, as is every other manufacturer, and then we'll be in a predicament where a lot of people may end up with disc frames and forced to fork over a large chunk of cash to assemble a new bike, all because of a frame defect that was out of their control. Just another flaw in the industry's forced obsolesence.

by Weenie


Hexsense
Posts: 1061
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

Braking in wet for disc brake is interesting.
Organic compound brake pad's braking performance tends to degrade in wet. It require a bit more finger power, therefore it is not as immune to wet condition as some people claim it to be. Also, it can worn down fast when dirt grit get to the pad and disc. This is why some people think disc brake isn't better than rim brake in their test. If someone is fine with organic pads and 140mm rotor, they usually are fine with direct mount rim brake with aluminum brake track wheels as well.

Metallic compound brake pad's braking performance are almost as good as when it's dry. It just felt the same and it is much more resistant to contamination. However, it is much likelier to make noise when braking in wet. Some people limit their brake usage when riding in group to not disturb other people with loud braking noise. Something MTB riders don't care. So we can get much better braking, that come with extra noise.

Holy grail pad would have metallic pad's wet performance without its noise. Ceramic? Kevlar? I don't know.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4807
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

SwissStop Disc RS have had reasonable durability in wet/damp conditions and don’t squeal pretty much ever. They’re organic/resin. SwissStop claims they aren’t even putting dev into metallic pads anymore because their resin pads have gotten so good.

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1330
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:23 pm
SwissStop Disc RS have had reasonable durability in wet/damp conditions and don’t squeal pretty much ever. They’re organic/resin. SwissStop claims they aren’t even putting dev into metallic pads anymore because their resin pads have gotten so good.
I've tried some in the Pyrenees last year so lots of long descents. I thought they were not as powerful as Shimano pads and rotors (even resin ones) but yes, very silent and the modulation was really smooth.

TheRich
Posts: 602
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Hexsense wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:42 pm
. This is why some people think disc brake isn't better than rim brake in their test. If someone is fine with organic pads and 140mm rotor, they usually are fine with direct mount rim brake with aluminum brake track wheels as well.
That's a bit of an overstatement.

In the wet, the initial bite of organic pads isn't as strong, but it's still not comparable to rim brakes. Metallic pads are the same, they just don't have as much initial bite as organics (at any time) so it's not as noticeable.

TheRich
Posts: 602
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Calnago wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:15 pm
syplam wrote:how about braking when its wet ? I always thought disk brakes are better when it's raining? Please prove me wrong before I get a disk bike.
That’s an interesting one, because by most if not all accounts discs are better in the pouring rain, but I have to admit I’ve never ridden discs in a really bad rain storm, although I live in a very wet climate. My dedicated rain bike... full fenders and Nemesis rims works fine and I exercise caution in those conditions regardless. The roads are still slippery despite what you brake with.
But here’s the thing, I remember when I first wanted to test out disc brakes on the road. I took out a Giant with Ultegra hydraulic discs. Nice long ride. Fast descents hard braking, just to test it out. In the dry I was not impressed, I mean sure I could stop but I would never have traded my Boras/Campy calipers rim setup for them. Ok, so for dry conditions to me at least, it was a no brainer... I simply preferred my exisitng setup for all the reasons I’ve discussed before. And I’ve ridden Dura Ace discs as well, much more recently and my thoughts haven’t changed. But... I really wanted to test what all the fuss was about over how great they are in the pouring rain. So I had agreed with the shop owner I know, that on the next torrential downpour kind of day, I would take the same bike out for a nice long ride and really test it out on roads I know well. On the condition that I cleaned it and brought it back pristine, and he trusted and knew I would do that. And that day finally came. I looked out the window with rain pounding against it, and thought... ya know... I really don’t care how they brake in the wet, because I will never at this point in my life be starting a ride in these conditions if I don’t have to. And I never took it out.
Now, if I was a daily commuter in my winter climate, then I’d try it out, for sure, but even more important than discs in those conditions would be full fenders and mudflaps to within a couple centimeters of the ground. And that’s what I have on my dedicated rim brake rain bike, which by the way, is much easier to fit full fenders around cleanly, especially when trying to mount the fender stays on the fork and chain/seatstays.
So, I guess if you think your time riding in the pouring rain is significant enough to warrant the added hassles of living with discs, then for sure, have at it. But for me, I’ve never had a problem when I get caught in the rain, even on my Campy/Boras setup which are very very good in any conditions. Now, rewind to the time when carbon road rims were just taking hold, and the “best” pads for carbon rims you could get were those god awful SwissStop Yellow things, well yes... those were scary days for sure in the rain. I was appalled at how I literally could not stop with my first set of carbon clinchers, and it didn’t help that the first day I really rode them was during a group ride on a cool rainy fall day. But those days are long gone. Today, carbon rims (but by no means all carbon rims) combined with appropriate pads really do have excellent, just as good or better than, braking as alloy rims for sure. But yes, if you are riding in the rain more than you’re riding in the dry, then for sure I’d look closely at the disc options. Or, if you really want to be riding 30mm or larger tires on your road bike, then discs really are your only option. But as some previous posters were recently saying, and I whole heartedly agree with, if you want a fine rim brake bike, and know exactly what you want from a geometry perspective, I’d be looking at a really nice custom steel frame. The steels of today are pretty amazing, given how thinly the walls can be drawn along with the butting options. At this point, I think that’s the way I’d be going if I was in the market for a new frame. Because it’s clear the big manufacturers would just like to cease supporting the two platform business model entirely. And life goes on. There are options. And good ones. Don’t despair, either way.
That is a lot of text to say that you don't have enough experience with them to say.

You might as well say that you went from a single speed to a geared bike and didn't notice any difference...because you didn't use the shifter.

Baal
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:42 pm

by Baal

syplam wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:47 pm
how about braking when its wet ? I always thought disk brakes are better when it's raining? Please prove me wrong before I get a disk bike.

Sent from my SM-G9650 using Tapatalk
It depends on how wet. I have road bikes with disc and rim that are fairly comparable otherwise. Hydraulic discs are vastly superior with modern carbon wheels if it is raining hard. Day and night. Getting really top end rim brake pads helps up to a point when it is wet, but in heavy rain braking can still be a terrifying proposition. Disc brakes don't really have that problem. Braking is reduced in heavy rain but still ok. They get noisy. They are a lot more complex to work on and the vast majority of the time the rim brakes work just fine. So it kind of depends on if you are likely to get caught in heavy rain. I live in the Texas Gulf coast. We sometimes get these short torrential rains that seem to come out of nowhere. Even so, I still ride my rim brake bike as many miles as my disc one. I use the disc if rain chance gets to around 40%.

Edit added. Sometimes water on the side of the road can be contaminated with nasty oily stuff. Once it gets on your disc rotors you may need to sand the pads and rotors to eliminate horrible noise and maintain braking performance. That is a PITA. It doesn't seem to happen to rim brakes and is a lot easier to deal with if it does.

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Does anyone know the name of this color? What year was it?

Image

XCProMD
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

TobinHatesYou wrote:The masses don't own bikes, Calnago. For example, around 1% of the American population rides a bike at least once a week. So you have to convince first-time buyers that rim brakes are better than disc brakes in a meaningful, real-world scenario for them. Saving 1lb of weight is not meaningful to them...or even you.
There’s a market outside the US. What I see here on the road, those that stick to rim brakes (myself included) don’t usually buy Spec.

As long as Sarto and Ciöcc continue in the business I’m fine.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

scale29
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:40 pm

by scale29

AJS914 wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:06 am
Does anyone know the name of this color? What year was it?

Image

That must bge a custom colour as it's an SL6 frameset.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 4807
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

100% custom painted.

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corky
Posts: 1383
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

That rear brake setup is probably why they’ve dropped rim brakes.....#shonky

ome rodriguez
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:16 am

by ome rodriguez

Only with eebrakes.

Bordcla
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:42 pm

by Bordcla

Calnago wrote:And 1lb of weight on a high end road bike is very meaningful to me.
You do realize that this is a 100% placebo/mental restriction that you impose on yourself, right? Your own weight varies by more than that over the course of a single ride. Do you ditch your saddlebag, bottles and empty your pockets before every climb?

by Weenie


HShimada
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:25 am

by HShimada

Bordcla wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:13 pm
Calnago wrote:And 1lb of weight on a high end road bike is very meaningful to me.
You do realize that this is a 100% placebo/mental restriction that you impose on yourself, right? Your own weight varies by more than that over the course of a single ride. Do you ditch your saddlebag, bottles and empty your pockets before every climb?
Common thinking among weight weenies (btw you realize it IS the forum's title) is that when everything is equal, you would climb faster on a 1lb lighter bike than not.
So even if a person doesn't ditch the saddlebags and empty the pockets before a climb, it's an Xlb bike + saddle bag and full pockets and bottles versus Xlb +1lb bike + saddle bag and full pockets.

They are right. There's no arguing facts and physics. How much that matters is subjective. Basically it's pointless to argue.

I'm not at all a weight weenie any more. Had sub 5.5kg bikes over the years. Now wouldn't change my 6.88kg SL6 Disc to any of those. But saying 1lb doesn't make a difference on this forum is pretty dumb and just factually wrong.
Last edited by HShimada on Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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