Tarmac rim brake options no more

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:31 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:19 pm
Then let's have a topic about ur sizing in bike fit topic.. What is ur inseam, ur body height etc... Maybe u'll put more effort on bike with geometry and riding caracteristics that suit u, vs marketing claims... I think that should be first thing to find out (before marketing things) , then to have some real ride experience and u'll find out ur self what u need or not.. But many italians brands have proper sizes even for extra tall riders.. So let's find first geometry and bike that suit u :) Buy a beer later :) (with just a fraction of money that u'll save not buying things that u dont need, but over pay them)

I have another bike which is 2 x 10 (Pinarello FP3).. I will almost say that even 11sp is not essentiall, but im used of it gearing i have on 11sp setups on both of my main bikes..

I have triple on my MTB (3 x 9sp), but i almost never use the smallest front chainring, so consider as 2 x 9 sp :)
Why so angry? First you claim that disks have too much power to be used safety and now you attack me for my height. :unbelievable:
I have not made a single marketing claim. Simply stated what I personally want.
FYI stack hight from 49cm to 61cm is approximately 100mm, yet inseam increases by around 200mm.
Im not angry at all :) Just trying to help u, since to be able to have opinion u need experience from real world riding not from marketing...

And i really wanted to help u to find ur proper size and geometry, since that essential to start actual riding (and after that to be able to have some worth experience and opinion about what u need or not in real world riding).. Seriosly.. I know how much effort i put in findind proper size for me when i decide to start riding more seriosly again just few years ago....

BTW:

viewtopic.php?f=3&p=1500795#p1500795

"During the grand depart brussels, introduction of ef drapac team only 2 out of 8 riders are on disc brakes."
Last edited by 3Pio on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

p.s. I cant see properly ur saddle setback on ur picture. Usually if u are extra tall and even the biggest size is small for u, so u have to put positive angle on stem, then ur saddle is all the way back.. In ur case seem that ur saddle is more in the forward...So another assumption that probably u are not flexible or fit enough to be able to ride the proper handlebar position even on Roubaix, so that why u have positive angle stem.. But as i said i cant see properly ur saddle setback, so this is also assumption.. Antoher Apologize if im wrong :)

Apology accepted. Again, they slack out larger bikes which changes your weight distribution and places your knees further back over the crank. I prefer a specific setback.

by Weenie


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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:34 pm

And i really wanted to help u to find ur proper size and geometry, since that essential to start actual riding (and after that to be able to have some worth experience and opinion about what u need or not in real world riding).. Seriosly.. I know how much effort i put in findind proper size for me when i decide to start riding more seriosly again just few years ago....
My size has always been: Give me the largerst bike you make. Mmmhhh this is still kind of small. FYI my mountain bike has 500mm of reach.

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:26 pm
TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:21 pm
My bike is the pinnacle of useful technology, anything else is silly and unnecessary....until I buy a bike with those things, at which point anything not included in that bike becomes silly and unnecessary. Rinse and repeat.
Maybe we deserve what bike industry do.... To sell for extra leveraged prices, Made In China things that we dont need (and are also negative to real world ride performances) , over complicated and not benefitial at all for real world riding performance (just oposite)...And to sell us marketing instead of real engineering....

I rest my case....
I like to brag about my premium bike, which is clearly better than premium bikes of the past (which is why I no longer ride them), but since I've drawn this line in the technological sand, no further improvements are possible. Since I am the greatest and wisest, everything I have is the greatest and therefore wisest choice. Until I buy another one.

I've worked it all out on a whiteboard and the math checks out, you have to trust me on this.

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:40 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:26 pm
TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:21 pm
My bike is the pinnacle of useful technology, anything else is silly and unnecessary....until I buy a bike with those things, at which point anything not included in that bike becomes silly and unnecessary. Rinse and repeat.
Maybe we deserve what bike industry do.... To sell for extra leveraged prices, Made In China things that we dont need (and are also negative to real world ride performances) , over complicated and not benefitial at all for real world riding performance (just oposite)...And to sell us marketing instead of real engineering....

I rest my case....
I like to brag about my premium bike, which is clearly better than premium bikes of the past (which is why I no longer ride them), but since I've drawn this line in the technological sand, no further improvements are possible. Since I am the greatest and wisest, everything I have is the greatest and therefore wisest choice. Until I buy another one.

I've worked it all out on a whiteboard and the math checks out, you have to trust me on this.
The latest bike i bought just a few months ago is Cannondale CAAD12.. Alloy.. .. Far from premium, and i bought it even is not premium and modern, and even i dont needed it at a time.. But since i know wont be available soon what i really need, decide to buy it... BTW is less then 7 kg with not that ultra light parts....

But when i was buying this bike i was just thinking with clear mind, not what marketing says, and based on my real world ridings......

Also when i was buying other bike, all commercials and everything was saying how Pinarello Dogma F8 is best, latest, bla bla bla.. I went to Treviso in Italy for a test ride, and to buy it.. Lucky me, i done similar test to Colnago C60 just 3 days before my trip to Italy.. And instead getting back with Pinarello Dogma F8 (which was best based on reviews), i bought Colnago C60 (based on my test ride, feeling etc..) .. And i dont regret.. Make me smile everytime i ride it same way as when i bought it.. Just make me want to ride it...


But as said, maybe we deserve what bike industry doing..... And no, im not greatest and wisest.. Just have some real world riding on which i can base my opinion.... What is that that u base ur opinion except payed reviews and commercials? Please share with us to learn something new and worth....

p.s. I just noticed ur nickname. TheRich

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rich

" having abundant possessions and especially material wealth"

I imagine someone really reach (in material wealth, not experience) going to a shop buying like this: " I want buy what is most expensive, latest tech, best reviews, bla bla bla.. Dont care for the price, just to be "BEST" .... I dont have anything about beeing Rich as soon as u have a clear mind and real enthusiasm.. And dont regret to spend big money on some real engineering and something worth... But really hate just for non value consumerism marketing... But Yeaah.. Probably We deserve what industry do this days.. Definetely....

I suggest instead to be Rich just in material wealth, start gaining some riding experience.. Since to be able to find out what is really benefitial for performance, riding experience (and clear thinking) is more important then just a material wealth without any real world riding (and clear thinking)..... Or just continue discussion in the way u like.. I wont interrupt u anymore... It's a promise ....
Last edited by 3Pio on Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

I bought an aluminum bike, because I am a man of the people, although it is just to compliment my $6,200 frameset.

Areo is stupid...btw, have you seen my deep section carbon wheels?

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corky
Posts: 1413
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:15 pm
corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm
What do you mean by power? I can lock my rim brakes with one finger ...... can you cite your source for ‘in fact it’s approximately half the power of a disk brake’ ?.......and in what units of measure you’re using?

No?....I think you’re making it up.....
Ever heard of this thing called "leverage?"
Please elaborate and ......again please answer my question and cite your source....and again what UOM are you using?
Otherwise you’re just another keyboard warrior with nothing real to say.......

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:03 pm
TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:15 pm
corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm
What do you mean by power? I can lock my rim brakes with one finger ...... can you cite your source for ‘in fact it’s approximately half the power of a disk brake’ ?.......and in what units of measure you’re using?

No?....I think you’re making it up.....
Ever heard of this thing called "leverage?"
Please elaborate and ......again please answer my question and cite your source....and again what UOM are you using?
Otherwise you’re just another keyboard warrior with nothing real to say.......
Do you understand how hydraulic systems work? A stick in the spokes will lock up a wheel too, is that just as good?

Don't project your problems on me, and don't demand sources when you cited none. That's not how it works.

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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:03 pm
Please elaborate and ......again please answer my question and cite your source....and again what UOM are you using?
Otherwise you’re just another keyboard warrior with nothing real to say.......
With the leverage ratio of rim brakes and a nominal hand force of 100N you can produce around 40Nm of deceleration. This is the max available with regard to coefficient of friction and Young’s Modulus for rubber. Beyond this point plastic deformation happens and the properties of the pad compound change. This is best case; flex free calipers on an aluminum rim.
With a 160 disk brake, 40Nm of deceleration is available at around 40N of hand force. Total overall deceleration is in the 50-80Nm range before off gassing, pad heat CF changes and other factors start cause inconsistencies. Small changes in manufacture pad CF and leverage ratios add a much greater variability. 200mm rotors increase this over 100+Nm for 40n of hand force.
A firm pull of the lever is around 40N and up to this leverage you have the most control over the application of force.
Depending on the tire/road surface and body position you have 40-70Nm of available grip to work with.
Conclusion
There are a ton of variables to this and as a general overview should be very close to real world numbers you will experience on you particular bike.
References
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/
https://www.matec-conferences.org/artic ... _04004.pdf
http://www.spaceflight.esa.int/impress/ ... s_08a.html
Last edited by Alexbn921 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

petromyzon
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Is it not possible that Spesh are running low on stock as we approach the next model year? Although I don't doubt the overall direction of travel is correct.
The last few pages of this thread discredit WW as a community.

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corky
Posts: 1413
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:30 pm
corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:03 pm
TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:15 pm
corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm
What do you mean by power? I can lock my rim brakes with one finger ...... can you cite your source for ‘in fact it’s approximately half the power of a disk brake’ ?.......and in what units of measure you’re using?

No?....I think you’re making it up.....
Ever heard of this thing called "leverage?"
Please elaborate and ......again please answer my question and cite your source....and again what UOM are you using?
Otherwise you’re just another keyboard warrior with nothing real to say.......
Do you understand how hydraulic systems work? A stick in the spokes will lock up a wheel too, is that just as good?

Don't project your problems on me, and don't demand sources when you cited none. That's not how it works.
I think you need professional help.......

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:39 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:34 pm

And i really wanted to help u to find ur proper size and geometry, since that essential to start actual riding (and after that to be able to have some worth experience and opinion about what u need or not in real world riding).. Seriosly.. I know how much effort i put in findind proper size for me when i decide to start riding more seriosly again just few years ago....
My size has always been: Give me the largerst bike you make. Mmmhhh this is still kind of small. FYI my mountain bike has 500mm of reach.

I suggest in that case to try going custom build frame if stock geometry dont work for u.. Believe me.. Fit is first and most important thing.. Everything else is second.... If u want i'll share one book with u about bike fit which maybe can help u finding proper fit/size/geometry... Just txt me in pvt with ur e-mail if u feel that can help...

Cheers....

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:00 pm
I think you need professional help.......
I think you need to read this:
Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:35 pm


With the leverage ratio of rim brakes and a nominal hand force of 100N you can produce around 40Nm of deceleration. This is the max available with regard to coefficient of friction and Young’s Modulus for rubber. Beyond this point plastic deformation happens and the properties of the pad compound change. This is best case; flex free calipers on an aluminum rim.
With a 160 disk brake, 40Nm of deceleration is available at around 40N of hand force. Total overall deceleration is in the 50-80Nm range before off gassing, pad heat CF changes and other factors start cause inconsistencies. Small changes in manufacture pad CF and leverage ratios add a much greater variability. 200mm rotors increase this over 100+Nm for 40n of hand force.
A firm pull of the lever is around 40N and up to this leverage you have the most control over the application of force.
Depending on the tire/road surface and body position you have 40-70Nm of available grip to work with.
Conclusion
There are a ton of variables to this and as a general overview should be very close to real world numbers you will experience on you particular bike.
References
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/
https://www.matec-conferences.org/artic ... _04004.pdf
http://www.spaceflight.esa.int/impress/ ... s_08a.html
Which would seem to be so painfully obvious that it wouldn't need explaining.

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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 pm
I suggest in that case to try going custom build frame if stock geometry dont work for u.. Believe me.. Fit is first and most important thing.. Everything else is second.... If u want i'll share one book with u about bike fit which maybe can help u finding proper fit/size/geometry... Just txt me in pvt with ur e-mail if u feel that can help...

Cheers....
All good bro.
I started working in a bike shop at age 14 after my grandfather and I did an unsupported ride across the USA. 3600 miles over 34 days. Since that time I have built all of my bikes from the frame up with hand pick components. Of course now I’m no longer a starving college student so my toys cost more.
Being off the size charts has forced me into the geometry rabbit hole and since my degree is in math/computer sciences it’s also something I enjoy. I have demoed dozens of bikes this year alone searching for my next bike, so I have a good feel of what the current trends are.
I am not fat, inflexible, don’t ride enough, a sucker for marketing speech or can’t understand geometry charts as you have suggested.
I just like to ride/work on my bike and prefer disk brakes.

by Weenie


3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:52 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:15 pm
I suggest in that case to try going custom build frame if stock geometry dont work for u.. Believe me.. Fit is first and most important thing.. Everything else is second.... If u want i'll share one book with u about bike fit which maybe can help u finding proper fit/size/geometry... Just txt me in pvt with ur e-mail if u feel that can help...

Cheers....
All good bro.
I started working in a bike shop at age 14 after my grandfather and I did an unsupported ride across the USA. 3600 miles over 34 days. Since that time I have built all of my bikes from the frame up with hand pick components. Of course now I’m no longer a starving college student so my toys cost more.
Being off the size charts has forced me into the geometry rabbit hole and since my degree is in math/computer sciences it’s also something I enjoy. I have demoed dozens of bikes this year alone searching for my next bike, so I have a good feel of what the current trends are.
I am not fat, inflexible, don’t ride enough, a sucker for marketing speech or can’t understand geometry charts as you have suggested.
I just like to ride/work on my bike and prefer disk brakes.
So we have here One Math/Computer science degree who prefer Disk Brakes, and other who think the Disk brakes are just marketing :)

Believe or not my degree is also math/computer science :) and im IT Engineer (who few years ago decided to Hard Reset the life and go to ride as much as possible until this RESET procedure happening :) ) (But based on this im almost sure u prefer Mac OS or Windows :) ).. Im 100% Linux (Arch or Manjaro Linux at a moment :) ) Should we open topic about this as well? :)

Sorry for off topic.. Cheers

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