Tarmac rim brake options no more

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
moonoi
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Earth

by moonoi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:59 pm
corky wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:55 pm

Out riding their bikes I expect.....

Sure. The main thing is they aren't buying new rim-brake bikes. "Nobody" is. The bikes that are selling have disc brakes. Trek attempted to appease a niche with the Madone SLR rim-brake complete bike, then the numbers came back...the bike wasn't selling. They put it out there...it was one of the only brand new aero bikes with rim brakes. Nobody bought it.

When nobody is buying a product, you discontinue that product.
And thats why you can buy a complete rimbrake SLR8 locally now with Mech Duraace 9100 and the Aeolus5 Pro wheels with 43% off list price, if it were selling well there is no way such a new bike would be getting this level of discounting to shift frames.

by Weenie


mortirolo
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

Disk brake or Rim brake, there are millions of specialized on the roads, so why would you like buy a Tarmac?
You can buy De Rosa, Time, AX...
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria

Stueys
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

Disc v Rim battle has been and gone, discs won a while back. Mainstream manufacturers have clearly indicated their intent, lot's of smaller guys still playing both angles. If you don't want discs then you've still got choices, those choices will get smaller (both for frames and components) over time.

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:13 pm
The masses don't own bikes, Calnago. For example, around 1% of the American population rides a bike at least once a week. So you have to convince first-time buyers that rim brakes are better than disc brakes in a meaningful, real-world scenario for them. Saving 1lb of weight is not meaningful to them...or even you.

I own few bikes, and last one i bought not because i needed new bike at a time, but just because i know there will be no Rim Brake version of that bike soon...

Anyway, i really ride my bikes in real ride scenarios, including really long rides, really long climbing, really long descending even in really hot weather (this days here temperature is more then 37 degs celsius), sometimes on rain... And living in really hilly area (in June i had 1500 km ridden, with 18500 m climbs, May 1300km with about 18000 m climbs...)

On my two main bikes i use Mechanical Campagnolo Groupset 11s (the second groupset i bought just because i know there will be soon no possible to buy 11sp), ride carbon tubulars (Bora 35 and Bora 50), and Rim Brakes... For now on my rides, i never ever realized that i need more powerfull braking than i have now (some of climbs here are more then 15%), also never ever need a electronic shifting... I just dont feel fatigue because i use mechanical shifting or rim brakes...




Disc Brakes, u want to realize ur self or not its just PURE MARKETING and profit based for companies who dont give u choice like Specialized...And yes, on my rides 1 LB weigt saving is meaningfull....


Just to have idea, i'll share my ride from few days ago... Really hot temperature whole day....

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Or check ride and this Segment on that ride (from last week):

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Another ride from last week and really steep climb on really hot weather:

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U want really really hot weather and climbs? Ok.. this is from 10 days ago:

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Or maybe really long climbing and descending with a lot of traffic , cows on the road etc, so need to brake a lot.... (this is month ago)...

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Interested to see ur ridings where u think u benefit from Disc Brakes, Electrical shifting and Aero Marketing....Maybe we dont have that kind of rides here, so still dont understund.. Who knows... :)

Also i never ever worned out a Rim on road bike(except on my MTB like 20 years ago, after many muddy and rainy rides and for few years (Mavic X517).. And that rim was really cheap to replace after maybe 7 years of riding)... On both of my BORA tub wheelset, cant notice any wear on the rim braking surface..

So let me try to convince u based on my riding and from real ride scenario WHY:

1. Why Disc brakes are Marketing and u dont need them in real ride scenario?

- More heavy then Rim Brakes

- More complicated then Rin Brakes for maintence

- More Heavy ten Rim Brakes

- Rim brakes in this stage have enough braking power (even in wet), and perfect modulation..

- Rim Brakes are cheaper for maintence...

- Disc Brakes can be dangerous in panic stops (two peoples here broke their hips in scenario of panic braking)

- If u dont know to brake and u melt somehow a rims, in same scenario i believe u'll melt ur rotors or the hydraulic oil will lost performance or both... But for now i never ever had that kind of scenari with rim brakes (while on my Magura Marta SL MTB Disc Brakes on long descent braking performance are not same on the begining vs on the end of the descent)..


2. Why AERO is marketing?

- Biggest surface exposed to Wind is the rider him self.. So better work on more Aero position vs chasing AERO benefit from Aero frameset... The second are wheelset.. So better get Aero Wheelset vs Aero Frameset...

- Aero Framset add weight, make propriety standards (for example seatpost or handlebars)..

- Those prorpiety standards cut ur choice to find components that will put u in perfect position or comfort, so since ur body is most exposded to Wind, maybe because u dont have a choice, in real ride scenarios put in less Aero Position....

- Heavier

- More complicated for maintence, working, installation for almost no real world beneift (most of the tests are not standardized and really just marketing)


3. Why u dont need Electronical shifting?

- Mechanical work perfectly and really dont fatigue ur hands even on long rides

- More complicated for service on the road or maintence...

- Another thing to charge and source for potential problems...

- More expensive for no benefit (except for show up)


4. Less maintence, less complication = More Time for actual riding vs maintence time....And i always prefer to ride versus having off bike times because of complicated maintence (with no benefits at all)

Im sure i did not convinced u, but at least i wont feel guilty that i did not try it :)

So that why i tried :)

Cheers and have a nice day

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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am

1. Why Disc brakes are Marketing and u dont need them in real ride scenario?

- More heavy then Rim Brakes

- More complicated then Rin Brakes for maintence

- Rim Brakes are cheaper for maintence...
This is true. Disks are heavier and require different tools and skills to maintain. Overall reliability is extraordinary high once properly setup.
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am
- Rim brakes in this stage have enough braking power (even in wet), and perfect modulation..

- Disc Brakes can be dangerous in panic stops (two peoples here broke their hips in scenario of panic braking)
Rim brakes DO NOT have enough power. In fact it's approximately half the power of a disk brake. Carbon rims are absolutely horrible even in the dry. Your definition of modulation and mine are very different. I come from an auto racing background and brakes make or break you. I need the extra power and know how to use it!

Not understanding how to use your brakes or praticing using them is dangerous. If you are that enept then you should probaply be on a fixie with no brakes. Being able to stop at the limit of tration is only a good thing. Rim brakes can't do this. The are limited in friction compounds by the braking surface. Your basicaly saying that you can't unclip and always fall over when you stop because of these new fangled clipless pedals. Flat pedals for life.

Anyway ride what every you want, it doesn’t bother me none.
Last edited by Alexbn921 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:19 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am

1. Why Disc brakes are Marketing and u dont need them in real ride scenario?

- More heavy then Rim Brakes

- More complicated then Rin Brakes for maintence

- Rim Brakes are cheaper for maintence...
This is true. Disks are heavier and require different tools and skills to maintain. Overall reliability is extraordinary high once properly setup.
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am
- Rim brakes in this stage have enough braking power (even in wet), and perfect modulation..

- Disc Brakes can be dangerous in panic stops (two peoples here broke their hips in scenario of panic braking)
Rim brakes DO NOT have enough power. In fact it's approximately half the power of a disk brake. Carbon rims are absolutely horrible even in the dry. Your definition of modulation and mine are very different. I come from an auto racing background and brakes make or break you. I need the extra power and know how to use it!

Not understanding how to use your brakes or praticing using them is dangerous. If you are that enept then you should probaply be a fixie with no brakes. Being able to stop at the limit of tration is only a good thing. Rim brakes can't do this. The are limited in friction compounds by the braking surface. Your basicaly saying that you can't unclip and always fall over when you stop because of these new fangled clipless pedals. Flat pedals for life.

Anyway ride what every you want, it doesn’t bother me none.

Good that u come from auto racing.. Hope u did not reply to wrong forum.. Just to remind u, this is forum about road cycling not auto racing...

If u want to understund how disk brakes can be dangerous, just go very fast, and press the brake lever full power (that why is called panic stop).. And maybe u;ll find out (at least that how those two guys broke their hips)..

BTW, really like to see ur ridings if u did not post on wrong forum.. Please share some of ur ridings in last few weeks (since we talk here abour real world ride scenario) ..... Wish to learn something which obviosly on my ridings i dont understund....

Thanks

EDIT: This ur post seem that explain ur claims.. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=157518&p=1500462#p1500462

" For me personally, I've been waiting for 12 speed, disk brakes and 12/142mm thru axles. I see this as a sustainable standard that will stick around long enough for parts availability.
12 speed because I need the range. Currently on a triple.
Disks, because I like to descend fast, am heavy and think they are safer. I also wanted full carbon wheels.
Thru axles are more secure and 12/142 is a good compromise of spacing and wheel straight.
Overall this is exactly what I’ve been waiting for. I knew it would come and I am spending my money to support it.

"

Try to ride more instead of reading marketing claims.. That way u'll lost ur excess weight (and actually feel what road biking is about), and will gain some real ride experience... And probably will understund what i allready shared based on my real world riding....And no, u dont need 12 sp... Actual riding make u fitter and that make u dont need Triple anymore and also no 12sp... But probably will find out as soon as u actually start riding more.... Or just ride a motorbike where ur auto racing experience will be worth more, and where Disks actually have sense.... So WIN:WIN situation....

And in ur case i admit.. If u are overweight probably u need disk brakes.. (Dont know ).. But also know that if u are overweight and not fit, than u dont use potential performance of high end race road bike, so in that case u dont need such a high end road race bike in first place....Except if the purpose of that bike for u is for show up.. In that case u really needed Latest, Most exensive and with all extras money can buy ....

But just send me ur rides in last few weeks, and show me how wrong im if im wrong in my assupmtions.. U'll even get my apologize after that :) if u really ride for real in different real world scenarios....

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corky
Posts: 1413
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:19 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am

1. Why Disc brakes are Marketing and u dont need them in real ride scenario?

- More heavy then Rim Brakes

- More complicated then Rin Brakes for maintence

- Rim Brakes are cheaper for maintence...
This is true. Disks are heavier and require different tools and skills to maintain. Overall reliability is extraordinary high once properly setup.
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:49 am
- Rim brakes in this stage have enough braking power (even in wet), and perfect modulation..

- Disc Brakes can be dangerous in panic stops (two peoples here broke their hips in scenario of panic braking)
Rim brakes DO NOT have enough power. In fact it's approximately half the power of a disk brake. Carbon rims are absolutely horrible even in the dry. Your definition of modulation and mine are very different. I come from an auto racing background and brakes make or break you. I need the extra power and know how to use it!

Not understanding how to use your brakes or praticing using them is dangerous. If you are that enept then you should probaply be on a fixie with no brakes. Being able to stop at the limit of tration is only a good thing. Rim brakes can't do this. The are limited in friction compounds by the braking surface. Your basicaly saying that you can't unclip and always fall over when you stop because of these new fangled clipless pedals. Flat pedals for life.

Anyway ride what every you want, it doesn’t bother me none.
What do you mean by power? I can lock my rim brakes with one finger ...... can you cite your source for ‘in fact it’s approximately half the power of a disk brake’ ?.......and in what units of measure you’re using?

No?....I think you’re making it up.....

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Alexbn921
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

Auto racing teaches you the correct lines and how to brake at the limit. Have you never once praticed how to panic stop? I do it almost every time I get on my motorcycle, just to get a feel for the limits again.
Saying that you are incapable of modulation a powerful brake is kind of sad or lazy. I believe that even you could learn the skills in short order. Cycling skills are not in a vacuum, they cross over into all sorts of other disciplines.
Since you requested some proof that I'm "Fast", not that it matters, here you go. I'm A+
Slight uphill 1 / 11459
https://www.strava.com/segments/8349579?filter=overall
Down Hill very tecnical. 4 / 11665
https://www.strava.com/segments/6345751?filter=overall
FYI both of these are on a 2007 Roubaix triple with a frame pump.
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Summit of Mt D
Summit of Mt D

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm
Auto racing teaches you the correct lines and how to brake at the limit. Have you never once praticed how to panic stop? I do it almost every time I get on my motorcycle, just to get a feel for the limits again.
Saying that you are incapable of modulation a powerful brake is kind of sad or lazy. I believe that even you could learn the skills in short order. Cycling skills are not in a vacuum, they cross over into all sorts of other disciplines.
Since you requested some proof that I'm "Fast", not that it matters, here you go. I'm A+
Slight uphill 1 / 11459
https://www.strava.com/segments/8349579?filter=overall
Down Hill very tecnical. 4 / 11665
https://www.strava.com/segments/6345751?filter=overall
FYI both of these are on a 2007 Roubaix triple with a frame pump.
Really impressive rides... Almost as impressive as positive Angle Stem on Roubaix.... As i promised i have to Apologize.. ...

I guess u also have impressive mileage of actual real world riding in last months or years (on which u base ur claims) ....So double apologize... But at least we share same blood type.. Im Also A+ :)

And while we are on technical rides on which i base my claims: (For example From last month)



On this ride we were three: Me on C60 and Bora 35 tubulars Rim Brakes... Then my friend on Oltre XR4 and Bora 50 tubulars (again rim brakes).. And another friend on his S-Works SL6, Durace Electronic, Rovals and disks... Going downhill my Oltre XR4 friend was fastest (as always on every ride doesnt matter if there is someone else with disks or not, or how tehcnical is or not..) I was second.. And third one was Disk Brake friend... So in actuall real world riding seem that u dont need to have disks to be fastest (and to have safest ride) going downhill.....


Image

Image

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Last edited by 3Pio on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:00 pm
[Really impressive rides... Almost as impressive as positive Angle Stem on Roubaix.... As i promised i have to Apologize.. ...

I guess u also have impressive mileage of actual real world riding in last months or years (on which u base ur claims) ....So double apologize... But at least we share same blood group.. Im Also A+ :)
LOL. Yes it's a positive angle on my stem. I had to cut the top off my steer tube as it was delaminating and since I needed to slam my stem, I couldn't properly invert it. I also ride a 3x10, so my options should be complete thrown out. :shock:

Geometry on bikes never scales for extra tall riders. Riding a 61cm increases my seat to bar drop. Don't worry my new bike will have an appropriate negative stem. 8)

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

corky wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:55 pm
What do you mean by power? I can lock my rim brakes with one finger ...... can you cite your source for ‘in fact it’s approximately half the power of a disk brake’ ?.......and in what units of measure you’re using?

No?....I think you’re making it up.....
Ever heard of this thing called "leverage?"

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:12 pm
3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:00 pm
[Really impressive rides... Almost as impressive as positive Angle Stem on Roubaix.... As i promised i have to Apologize.. ...

I guess u also have impressive mileage of actual real world riding in last months or years (on which u base ur claims) ....So double apologize... But at least we share same blood group.. Im Also A+ :)
LOL. Yes it's a positive angle on my stem. I had to cut the top off my steer tube as it was delaminating and since I needed to slam my stem, I couldn't properly invert it. I also ride a 3x10, so my options should be complete thrown out. :shock:

Geometry on bikes never scales for extra tall riders. Riding a 61cm increases my seat to bar drop. Don't worry my new bike will have an appropriate negative stem. 8)

Then let's have a topic about ur sizing in bike fit topic.. What is ur inseam, ur body height etc... Maybe u'll put more effort on bike with geometry and riding caracteristics that suit u, vs marketing claims... I think that should be first thing to find out (before marketing things) , then to have some real ride experience and u'll find out ur self what u need or not.. But many italians brands have proper sizes even for extra tall riders.. So let's find first geometry and bike that suit u :) Buy a beer later :) (with just a fraction of money that u'll save not buying things that u dont need, but over pay them)



I have another bike which is 2 x 10 (Pinarello FP3).. I will almost say that even 11sp is not essentiall, but im used of it gearing i have on 11sp setups on both of my main bikes so prefer to 2 x 10 (but i never put much effort to find ideal gearing setup on that 2 x 10 bike i have)

I have triple on my MTB (3 x 9sp), but i almost never use the smallest front chainring, so consider as 2 x 9 sp :)

p.s. I cant see properly ur saddle setback on ur picture. Usually if u are extra tall and even the biggest size is small for u, so u have to put positive angle on stem, then ur saddle is all the way back.. In ur case seem that ur saddle is more in the forward...So another assumption that probably u are not flexible or fit enough to be able to ride the proper handlebar position even on Roubaix, so that why u have positive angle stem.. But as i said i cant see properly ur saddle setback, so this is also assumption.. Antoher Apologize if im wrong :)
Last edited by 3Pio on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

My bike is the pinnacle of useful technology, anything else is silly and unnecessary....until I buy a bike with those things, at which point anything not included in that bike becomes silly and unnecessary. Rinse and repeat.

3Pio
Posts: 1405
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

TheRich wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:21 pm
My bike is the pinnacle of useful technology, anything else is silly and unnecessary....until I buy a bike with those things, at which point anything not included in that bike becomes silly and unnecessary. Rinse and repeat.
Maybe we deserve what bike industry do.... To sell for extra leveraged prices, Made In China things that we dont need (and are also negative to real world ride performances) , over complicated and not benefitial at all for real world riding performance (just oposite)...And to sell us marketing instead of real engineering....

I rest my case....

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Alexbn921
Posts: 349
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by Alexbn921

3Pio wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:19 pm
Then let's have a topic about ur sizing in bike fit topic.. What is ur inseam, ur body height etc... Maybe u'll put more effort on bike with geometry and riding caracteristics that suit u, vs marketing claims... I think that should be first thing to find out (before marketing things) , then to have some real ride experience and u'll find out ur self what u need or not.. But many italians brands have proper sizes even for extra tall riders.. So let's find first geometry and bike that suit u :) Buy a beer later :) (with just a fraction of money that u'll save not buying things that u dont need, but over pay them)

I have another bike which is 2 x 10 (Pinarello FP3).. I will almost say that even 11sp is not essentiall, but im used of it gearing i have on 11sp setups on both of my main bikes..

I have triple on my MTB (3 x 9sp), but i almost never use the smallest front chainring, so consider as 2 x 9 sp :)
Why so angry? First you claim that disks have too much power to be used safety and now you attack me for my height. :unbelievable:
I have not made a single marketing claim. Simply stated what I personally want.
FYI stack hight from 49cm to 61cm is approximately 100mm, yet inseam increases by around 200mm.

by Weenie


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