The future of performance road bikes?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Hexsense
Posts: 871
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

Right,
Both weight and aero doesn't matter nearly as much as upgraded engine.

Let sink in a bit.
1kg of weight gain or loss on bike sound like a world of difference. It is very noticeable when holding bike by hand. But it is only 1.5% of total weight 65kg (rider 58kg+ bike 7kg).
It cost a ton to reduce total weight by 1.5% ...

Aero can make a bit more noticeable difference. Aero light bike's drag are reduced by 30% compare to pure light weight bike. But bike contribute to only 25% of total drag (75 more percent caused by rider). That means for the same helmet, shoes, clothing and position: Aero light bike can reduce total drag by 7.5% compare to pure light bike.

Presume a bike weight 2kg less than competitor and also causing 30% less wind drag also. Making it 3% lighter total weight and 7.5% more aero (total drag) than the same rider on normal bike.
That can never make weaker rider (like 220watts FTP) to win a stronger rider (like 250 watts FTP). Let alone any larger difference in power (to weight or drag ratio).

In the other hands, what if a bike is uncomfortable or hard to control and cause rider to lose ability to generate power? For example, too little grip that you have to reduce speed through corner. Too harsh that you can't generate power on bumpy road. That would make much more difference than any of drag or weight reduction. Therefore, my prediction for next thing is bike that aid rider's confidence and comfort. Tire with Huge amount of grip, frame and tire with some suspension built in to soak away vibration etc.
Last edited by Hexsense on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3818
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

fxx wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:33 pm
Sojodave wrote:I vote that road biking in the future will come with comfortable saddles that don't take buying a dozen before you find the right one.
Aye aye don't see what's the point in ultra light saddles with minimal padding and yet you have to pad it up with good shorts, which weigh more, negating the weight savings.

Might as well design well padded saddles.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Saddles with lots of padding exist and people use them. However, foam is a consumable with a limited number of compression/rebound cycles. Also your pelvis does rock a little bit when riding, so having the foam padding stationary on the saddle while only lycra protects against friction between your skin and saddle cover can lead to chafing. Think of the chamois/pad in your shorts as a slip layer over the saddle.

Saddle fit is also so personal, there’s not going to be one killer product to suit everyone. People are still going to have to try several before finding the one that works best for them unless they get lucky or aren’t sensitive to it at all.

by Weenie


User avatar
Alexbn921
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

fxx wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 am
ome rodriguez wrote:
I doubt. A lot of companies experimenting on different materials for rotors without success. Mtb are on discs for more than a decade now and still on the reliable steel rotors
He is talking about F1 ceramic brake technology used for stopping 300kmh F1 cars and would cost 10s of times the price of the common steel rotors and for a disproportionately small amount of weight savings, hence steel rotors still rule.
I was one of the kickstart backers for Kettle Sicc rotors and got one of the first sets available. I was also the first to get a set of their Sicc pads. The performance with organic pads was comparable to rim brakes. It was a significant downgrade in power and they were borderline un-ridable.

With the Sicc pads they had the same ultimate level of grip as steel rotors. This is where things get interesting. Carbon ceramic’s dynamic vs static coefficient of friction doesn’t change like steels. When you approach locking the wheel it can lock and recover without changing the force at the lever. With steel, you need to release pressure to get the wheel spinning again and then reapply. :smartass:

This was massive when braking on dirt where small changes in the surface would momentary lock the rear wheel. With Sicc it would recover without drama and you could brake much harder with better control. It was truly next level performance and hard to convey just how amazing it was. I would still be running them today if they stayed true. :mrgreen:

Unfortunately, they didn’t have the expertise to produce a long term quality rotor and where force out of business. The manufacturing and technology to produce rotors that would stay true and last a season was beyond their small teams ability.

If I was Sram or Shimano, I would buy their patents and pore money it to making them work. People would pay 2-3 times the cost of steel after riding them once. Being lighter is nice too.

A fool and his money are soon parted. :noidea: :unbelievable:

fxx
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx


Hexsense wrote:
In the other hands, what if a bike is uncomfortable or hard to control and cause rider to lose ability to generate power? For example, too little grip that you have to reduce speed through corner. Too harsh that you can't generate power on bumpy road. That would make much more difference than any of drag or weight reduction. Therefore, my prediction for next thing is bike that aid rider's confidence and comfort. Tire with Huge amount of grip, frame and tire with some suspension built in to soak away vibration etc.
Sounds like riding a light Ti bike with good cockpit integration and well hidden cables should fit the bill.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk




User avatar
Gunnar
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed May 22, 2019 6:03 am

by Gunnar

fxx wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 am
ome rodriguez wrote:
I doubt. A lot of companies experimenting on different materials for rotors without success. Mtb are on discs for more than a decade now and still on the reliable steel rotors
He is talking about F1 ceramic brake technology used for stopping 300kmh F1 cars and would cost 10s of times the price of the common steel rotors and for a disproportionately small amount of weight savings, hence steel rotors still rule.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
I mean you could have said the same thing about carbon rims or even carbon frames several decades ago, it’s not like they were affordable right off the bat. Its not like steel rotors cost that much anyways so 10x would be like $300-400, I know for a fact there are pricer upgrades out there, reguardless there’s no reason why carbon ceramic rotors couldn't be made at a much lower cost over time. You could have sub 80mm rotors that perform exceptionally well at high speeds and negate the chance of brake fade, on top of this they would look better, weigh less, wont warp, and protrude less; reducing the safety concerns of current disc sizes. Road bikes have already picked up many design concerns from motorsports, ie: multiple gears, carbon-fiber/weight reduction, aero, standard disc brakes... these all costed a lot initially but have gradually become more accessible, IMO it is inevitable that we will see carbon ceramics on bikes at some point.

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

fxx wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 am
ome rodriguez wrote:
I doubt. A lot of companies experimenting on different materials for rotors without success. Mtb are on discs for more than a decade now and still on the reliable steel rotors
He is talking about F1 ceramic brake technology used for stopping 300kmh F1 cars and would cost 10s of times the price of the common steel rotors and for a disproportionately small amount of weight savings, hence steel rotors still rule.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
To be clear - the F1 types of materials are not only expensive, but have an optimal operating window at between 400 and 1000 degrees centigrade. Below 400, they braking efficiency diminishes. Needless to say, brakes on the bikes would have a really hard time reaching those sorts of “orange glow” temps , and if they did, the brake rotors would start doing serious damage to the surrounding components in the hub and fork.

fxx
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx

aeroisnteverything wrote:
fxx wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:10 am
ome rodriguez wrote:
I doubt. A lot of companies experimenting on different materials for rotors without success. Mtb are on discs for more than a decade now and still on the reliable steel rotors
He is talking about F1 ceramic brake technology used for stopping 300kmh F1 cars and would cost 10s of times the price of the common steel rotors and for a disproportionately small amount of weight savings, hence steel rotors still rule.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
To be clear - the F1 types of materials are not only expensive, but have an optimal operating window at between 400 and 1000 degrees centigrade. Below 400, they braking efficiency diminishes. Needless to say, brakes on the bikes would have a really hard time reaching those sorts of “orange glow” temps , and if they did, the brake rotors would start doing serious damage to the surrounding components in the hub and fork.
Yes that's what I meant, total overkill, rider's power measured in watts, F1 cars measured in HP. Do we really need such exotic materials for bicycles?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


RocketRacing
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

the best braking pad/surface materials really depend on the heat levels expected. That will differ from dry to wet, flats to hills... but bikes will see very low temps. And in everything but f1, quality steel rotors are used. Even the 10,000$ porsche carbon ceramic rotors for their top flight track cars are usually swapped for steel rotors. Mainly because you can get all of the performance with a little less durability, and waaaaaaaaay less cost.

RocketRacing
Posts: 786
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 2:43 am

by RocketRacing

Gunnar wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:55 am

I mean you could have said the same thing about carbon rims or even carbon frames several decades ago, it’s not like they were affordable right off the bat. Its not like steel rotors cost that much anyways so 10x would be like $300-400, I know for a fact there are pricer upgrades out there, reguardless there’s no reason why carbon ceramic rotors couldn't be made at a much lower cost over time. You could have sub 80mm rotors that perform exceptionally well at high speeds and negate the chance of brake fade, on top of this they would look better, weigh less, wont warp, and protrude less; reducing the safety concerns of current disc sizes. Road bikes have already picked up many design concerns from motorsports, ie: multiple gears, carbon-fiber/weight reduction, aero, standard disc brakes... these all costed a lot initially but have gradually become more accessible, IMO it is inevitable that we will see carbon ceramics on bikes at some point.
The biggest setback to carbonceramic rotors in cars has been their tendancy to crack under heat. As a result, their “near infinate” lifespan was often reduced to a trackday or two. At that was with models found on top end road cars few years ago.

Now demends on street bikes will be less... but will it be the right material for the job? I presume rotors can be made to perform optimally cold (road bike temps), but at what cost. Economies of scale bring down prices, but some manufacturing processes/materials are just $$$. I can assure you that steel is, and will always be far cheaper with 95% of the benefits.

Now, i think bike carbon rotors already exist (and lets not get cheeky about carbon rim brakes being a big rotor). Not sure how they hold up.


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post