Road short cage RD with a 9-46t cassette!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86


andreszucs wrote:
Shifting on the stand is perfect!
andreszucs wrote:Pleased to report that real world shifting for 45 miles this morning was flawless.


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You may be ok with the compromised shifting but claiming it is perfect is complete misinformation at best.

It won't be satisfactory for 99% of users no matter how much you're willing to tell yourself it's fine and this is where people are taking issue and highlighting options that will work much better for negligible weight gain. Add to that the 180g for the XX mech will still likely be lighter than the Red mech once you add the weight of an offset cage and the B link with better geometry and chain management.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Rode with a guy today who I haven’t ridden with for awhile. Last year when we rode he thought his brand new Campagnolo shifting was fine except he had “a little” trouble getting into the biggest cog. I had a quick look at it and quickly ascertained that his indexing was almost an entire cog off; it was bad.
So today, early on in the ride, I asked him if everything’s working ok and finally “dialed”. He said “yup, it’s great”. Later in the ride I asked him to perform a couple specific front shifts for me. I could immediately tell it was far from “dialed”. Plus, it was extremely “stiff” feeling. I asked him if that stiffness bothered him and he said he thought that was “just how it is”. I let him try mine. Probably a bad idea because now he knows how good it could be if it truly was “dialed”. So many things wrong with his setup, from just simple adjustment to friction underneath the BB shell with a suboptimal guide on a generic frame and sharp entry points from the BB shell up through to the front derailleur. Again, I showed him mine, with the thick Teflon tubing and grub seals, keeping things clean and friction free. He was blown away with how easy it felt in comparison.
Point being... unless I’ve verified it first hand, I’m very skeptical when people say their Campy shifting is “perfect”. I can almost always make it better. But kudos to those if I can’t.

I’m with Nefarious on this project. There is no way that system is shifting “crisply”. Reminds me of 15+ years ago (or I guess even now to some extent) when, trying to make a derailleur “work” with a much larger cassette than it was designed for, a framebuilder might stick on or fabricate a really long rearward hanger or something so the derailleur can clear the biggest cogs. Trouble was, as is the case above, the distance from the middle and smaller cogs becomes so great that “crisp” shifting is quite impossible. Can you get it to shift?... sure you can. But crisply, as today’s derailleurs are designed to work, not likely. But one thing’s for sure... you do learn by actually doing; no amount of googling or reading will substitute for real world scenarios to really understand why it’s sub optimal. So kudos to the OP for trying. But some day he will ride a crisp shifting bike and have that Oprah “ah ha” moment or whatever you want to call it. A revelation perhaps. There are a lot more options these days to accommodate larger cassettes that retain good shifting.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Nefarious86 wrote:
andreszucs wrote:
Shifting on the stand is perfect!
andreszucs wrote:Pleased to report that real world shifting for 45 miles this morning was flawless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You may be ok with the compromised shifting but claiming it is perfect is complete misinformation at best.

It won't be satisfactory for 99% of users no matter how much you're willing to tell yourself it's fine and this is where people are taking issue and highlighting options that will work much better for negligible weight gain. Add to that the 180g for the XX mech will still likely be lighter than the Red mech once you add the weight of an offset cage and the B link with better geometry and chain management.

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Can the XX work with a 11sp road shifter? Have you tried before? That was my primary idea so I did tried shifting the XX RD with a XX1 gripshifter and it didn’t work at all, couldnt find the cogs in the middle of the cassette.


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Last edited by andreszucs on Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Calnago wrote:Rode with a guy today who I haven’t ridden with for awhile. Last year when we rode he thought his brand new Campagnolo shifting was fine except he had “a little” trouble getting into the biggest cog. I had a quick look at it and quickly ascertained that his indexing was almost an entire cog off; it was bad.
So today, early on in the ride, I asked him if everything’s working ok and finally “dialed”. He said “yup, it’s great”. Later in the ride I asked him to perform a couple specific front shifts for me. I could immediately tell it was far from “dialed”. Plus, it was extremely “stiff” feeling. I asked him if that stiffness bothered him and he said he thought that was “just how it is”. I let him try mine. Probably a bad idea because now he knows how good it could be if it truly was “dialed”. So many things wrong with his setup, from just simple adjustment to friction underneath the BB shell with a suboptimal guide on a generic frame and sharp entry points from the BB shell up through to the front derailleur. Again, I showed him mine, with the thick Teflon tubing and grub seals, keeping things clean and friction free. He was blown away with how easy it felt in comparison.
Point being... unless I’ve verified it first hand, I’m very skeptical when people say their Campy shifting is “perfect”. I can almost always make it better. But kudos to those if I can’t.

I’m with Nefarious on this project. There is no way that system is shifting “crisply”. Reminds me of 15+ years ago (or I guess even now to some extent) when, trying to make a derailleur “work” with a much larger cassette than it was designed for, a framebuilder might stick on or fabricate a really long rearward hanger or something so the derailleur can clear the biggest cogs. Trouble was, as is the case above, the distance from the middle and smaller cogs becomes so great that “crisp” shifting is quite impossible. Can you get it to shift?... sure you can. But crisply, as today’s derailleurs are designed to work, not likely. But one thing’s for sure... you do learn by actually doing; no amount of googling or reading will substitute for real world scenarios to really understand why it’s sub optimal. So kudos to the OP for trying. But some day he will ride a crisp shifting bike and have that Oprah “ah ha” moment or whatever you want to call it. A revelation perhaps. There are a lot more options these days to accommodate larger cassettes that retain good shifting.
I just moved from a XTR m9000 RD with the tanpan adapter to convert the cable pull from STi. Tons of friction, very poor shifting, heavy, huge RD, only negative things. This attempt solved all my issues at once so I’m really happy with it. Maybe you are all right that I shouldn’t use the word flawless since I haven’t tried enough setups to compare...to me it feels flawless and suiting my needs, so I will take it


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alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Also as the chain starts to wear it will deflect more and you won't be able to shift.

Ceramic bearings in those pulley wheels will potentially have more sideway play and so it won't shift.

The race of trying to improve these issues without moving the pulley to it's correct position is in the end a losing battle.

I live in China and have a huge supply of workaround crap available to me. The lesson learned is you can only deviate the intended cassette for a certain derailleur by a proportional performance loss. With 1x you have a little leanway but not enough for what you're attempting.

raisinberry777
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by raisinberry777

andreszucs wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:22 am
Can the XX work with a 11sp road shifter? Have you tried before? That was my primary idea so I did tried shifting the XX RD with a XX1 gripshifter and it didn’t work at all, couldnt find the cogs in the middle of the cassette.


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SRAM's 10 speed MTB RDs are cross compatible with 10 and 11 speed road (but not 11/12 speed MTB).

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

alcatraz wrote:Also as the chain starts to wear it will deflect more and you won't be able to shift.
Well than it will be time for a new chain anyways?!



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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

andreszucs wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
andreszucs wrote:
Shifting on the stand is perfect!
andreszucs wrote:Pleased to report that real world shifting for 45 miles this morning was flawless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You may be ok with the compromised shifting but claiming it is perfect is complete misinformation at best.

It won't be satisfactory for 99% of users no matter how much you're willing to tell yourself it's fine and this is where people are taking issue and highlighting options that will work much better for negligible weight gain. Add to that the 180g for the XX mech will still likely be lighter than the Red mech once you add the weight of an offset cage and the B link with better geometry and chain management.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
Can the XX work with a 11sp road shifter? Have you tried before? That was my primary idea so I did tried shifting the XX RD with a XX1 gripshifter and it didn’t work at all, couldnt find the cogs in the middle of the cassette.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Both Exact Actuation And work well together. 11s MTB use X-actuation hence the lack of indexing.

Also a chain will develop plenty of side play that will cause havoc on the smaller sprockets long before it's "stretched" to a point it needs replacing, this isn't an issue in a system where the top jockey wheel tracks closely to the cassette.

ImageImage

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petromyzon
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by petromyzon

I suppose the good news is that the trigger shifter looks fantastic bolted to your stem like that.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

petromyzon wrote:I suppose the good news is that the trigger shifter looks fantastic bolted to your stem like that.
I know you’re being sarcastic but I actually dig the looks of the anodized lever hanging there, and the position is actually very easy to manage with my left hand.

Haters in 3...2...1...

Image
To have a context of why I have this setup...it’s because I don’t have 3 fingers on my right hand (was born without it) so STI’s don’t really work for me, I can’t reach the shifters and brake lever as well and I have to unsafely rotate my hand too much, so this setup at least gives me the chance to use dropbars with more confidence...saving lots of weight with it.

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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

petromyzon wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:13 pm
I suppose the good news is that the trigger shifter looks fantastic bolted to your stem like that.

YES indeed... practical solution that works for the guy. :beerchug: :thumbup:

GUESS.. one wonders. WHY the people above paying the freight here .. bother. The ones advertising.. for sure posters like andreszucs buy products.. don't we all. But.. someone posts a quirk on the "pro" thread and the flyswatter drops... :noidea:

WALLET WEENIES... the home of keyboard queens.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

andreszucs wrote: To have a context of why I have this setup...it’s because I don’t have 3 fingers on my right hand (was born without it) so STI’s don’t really work for me, I can’t reach the shifters and brake lever as well and I have to unsafely rotate my hand too much, so this setup at least gives me the chance to use dropbars with more confidence...saving lots of weight with it.
This piece of info changes a lot of things with regards to options for shifting and your setup. I’ve gone through the various configurations of different ways you can set up Di2 and EPS. I have no use for things like synchroshift, semi synchroshift, or Campy’s derivatives of the same thing. BUT, for someone with a physical handicap such as you have, you could actually configure a single shifter to control ALL aspects of shifting, front and rear. And so, while I’m completely indifferent to electronic shifting in the normal course of things, I can see it being a huge benefit for someone such as yourself perhaps. And for some, it might even make the difference between being able to ride or not being able to ride at all.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Calnago wrote:
andreszucs wrote: To have a context of why I have this setup...it’s because I don’t have 3 fingers on my right hand (was born without it) so STI’s don’t really work for me, I can’t reach the shifters and brake lever as well and I have to unsafely rotate my hand too much, so this setup at least gives me the chance to use dropbars with more confidence...saving lots of weight with it.
This piece of info changes a lot of things with regards to options for shifting and your setup. I’ve gone through the various configurations of different ways you can set up Di2 and EPS. I have no use for things like synchroshift, semi synchroshift, or Campy’s derivatives of the same thing. BUT, for someone with a physical handicap such as you have, you could actually configure a single shifter to control ALL aspects of shifting, front and rear. And so, while I’m completely indifferent to electronic shifting in the normal course of things, I can see it being a huge benefit for someone such as yourself perhaps. And for some, it might even make the difference between being able to ride or not being able to ride at all.
Yes I’ve tried electronic ultegra before, it does solve the shifting side for me, but the assembly is way too big and I can’t reach the brake levers without rotating my hand away from the base, it’s unsafe. The MTB Magura lever is way smaller and I’m able to reach the lever either from the top or the drops.


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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86


WinterRider wrote:
petromyzon wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:13 pm
I suppose the good news is that the trigger shifter looks fantastic bolted to your stem like that.

YES indeed... practical solution that works for the guy. :beerchug: Image

GUESS.. one wonders. WHY the people above paying the freight here .. bother. The ones advertising.. for sure posters like andreszucs buy products.. don't we all. But.. someone posts a quirk on the "pro" thread and the flyswatter drops... :noidea:

WALLET WEENIES... the home of keyboard queens.

Ride more.
You do know that no-one is forcing you to sit here and be a keyboard idiot right, no-one was advertising anything. People were offering solutions that would offer a greater level of compatibility, isn't that the idea here? Sharing knowledge and experience based on the information at hand...

As for the pro thread if you have such a problem with it how about message myself or another mood and talk about it rather than posting barely literate rants.

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Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

andreszucs wrote:
Calnago wrote:
andreszucs wrote: To have a context of why I have this setup...it’s because I don’t have 3 fingers on my right hand (was born without it) so STI’s don’t really work for me, I can’t reach the shifters and brake lever as well and I have to unsafely rotate my hand too much, so this setup at least gives me the chance to use dropbars with more confidence...saving lots of weight with it.
This piece of info changes a lot of things with regards to options for shifting and your setup. I’ve gone through the various configurations of different ways you can set up Di2 and EPS. I have no use for things like synchroshift, semi synchroshift, or Campy’s derivatives of the same thing. BUT, for someone with a physical handicap such as you have, you could actually configure a single shifter to control ALL aspects of shifting, front and rear. And so, while I’m completely indifferent to electronic shifting in the normal course of things, I can see it being a huge benefit for someone such as yourself perhaps. And for some, it might even make the difference between being able to ride or not being able to ride at all.
Yes I’ve tried electronic ultegra before, it does solve the shifting side for me, but the assembly is way too big and I can’t reach the brake levers without rotating my hand away from the base, it’s unsafe. The MTB Magura lever is way smaller and I’m able to reach the lever either from the top or the drops.


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Have you tried the newer generation levers? The have much better reach adjustment on the levers.

You could even run a 1x11 setup with your modified brake levers using the SW-R9150 buttons mounted on the inside of your printed hoods with a satellite climbing shifter near the stem and an XTR rear mech. Yes it will be a weight penalty but will be infinitely more usable in any hand position.

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