Road short cage RD with a 9-46t cassette!

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

alcatraz wrote:Do you want mtb or road shifters?

Is it a 1x or 2x setup?

That rear derailleur is pure crap for that cassette. If you answer the questions we can suggest something good to enable the use of the 46t without sacrificing high gear shifting.

The shifting can't possibly be flawless. With an 11-36 cassette and the wifli red derailleur it's impossible to smoothly shift the highest gears without special modification and "help" like overshifting to make the jump.
It’s a 1x, it’s going to be a road R2C TT 11sp shifter paired with the sram red. The short cage is able to line the 46t without reaching its full extension, I just need to work on clearing the upper pulley, a few options in mind. I have no complains about the shifting at all, it’s def not pure crap, it’s actually the minimum material needed to do the job, try the setup yourself and come back here to tell me about it. The weight combination will be insanely light at about 465g for cassette/RD/ shifter.


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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

I love the idea behind this setup. Nothing I've ever done with a wolftooth extender has worked well with crisp shifts, although I did get a 10 or 11-42 long cage working well on a MTB back in the day 42t was considerd big on a MTB. Well done, hope you enjoy it.

Real inventiveness in the true WW tradition. :thumbup:

by Weenie


alcatraz
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by alcatraz

The 10 speed X01 rear derailleur fits the cassette best and can be used with 11sp road shifters and 11sp cassette.

If you have to go weightweenie then try the XX 10sp derailleur. Although not the right one, it's at least better than the sram red wifli.

The problem is the distance of the guide pulley to the cassette. The wifli derailleur was designed to follow the slope of a ~30t cassette (short cage ~26t). When you try to clear a 39t or a 46t your guide pulley will be miles away from the small cogs.

Sure it could work adequately for recreational riding but if you ever want to save time and be fast it won't do.

(I run 11-36t xx cassette with mtb xx derailleur on road red shifters, my friend runs red wifli derailleur (without roadlink) on 11-36t xx cassette and red shifters. I set up both systems. I had to use a 10t guide pulley on my friends bike to get more clearance. Narrow/wide tooth profile lowers chain deflection. Shifting is ok, not great. For fun it works nicely but as we get more competitive and fast, these setups require mtb derailleurs.)

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

alcatraz wrote:The 10 speed X01 rear derailleur fits the cassette best and can be used with 11sp road shifters and 11sp cassette.

If you have to go weightweenie then try the XX 10sp derailleur. Although not the right one, it's at least better than the sram red wifli.

The problem is the distance of the guide pulley to the cassette. The wifli derailleur was designed to follow the slope of a ~30t cassette (short cage ~26t). When you try to clear a 39t or a 46t your guide pulley will be miles away from the small cogs.

Sure it could work adequately for recreational riding but if you ever want to save time and be fast it won't do.

(I run 11-36t xx cassette with mtb xx derailleur on road red shifters, my friend runs red wifli derailleur (without roadlink) on 11-36t xx cassette and red shifters. I set up both systems. I had to use a 10t guide pulley on my friends bike to get more clearance. Narrow/wide tooth profile lowers chain deflection. Shifting is ok, not great. For fun it works nicely but as we get more competitive and fast, these setups require mtb derailleurs.)
I’m waiting on a 10t upper pulley, if does work I’m considering something like this replacing the upper with the 10t, we can see the offset at the top:
Image
It would add a few grams since the Red cage is lighter.

If all that doesn’t work my next plan is to design and 3D print a cage with a big offset on the upper pulley, just like we see on the XX1/eagle RD’s.

As of now the guide pulley is very close to the cassette when shifting the bigger cogs, a little far away shifting the smaller ones, the offset cage with solve that.

I’ll post a video of the shifting.


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WinterRider
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by WinterRider

alcatraz wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:26 am
Do you want mtb or road shifters?

Is it a 1x or 2x setup?

That rear derailleur is pure crap for that cassette. If you answer the questions we can suggest something good to enable the use of the 46t without sacrificing high gear shifting.

The shifting can't possibly be flawless. With an 11-36 cassette and the wifli red derailleur it's impossible to smoothly shift the highest gears without special modification and "help" like overshifting to make the jump.
Smells.. like a 'pure crap' lob from afar.. unless you've actually built one. Sure issues seem apparent.. yet the guy is enjoying his experiment... 'spend and learn' side. :thumbup:

Gets old.. sometimes. 'tude and judgements... ride more.. type less.
Litespeed 2000 Appalachian 61 cm
Litespeed 1998 Blue Ridge 61cm

Fitness rider.. 2 yrs from seven decades age.

That is my story and I'm stick'n to it.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Here is the setup functioning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfgaIG2OqJI

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

It the claims by the OP that the shifting is flawless that's the issue here. Some peoples definition of flawless is 10 speed campagnolo cassettes work with 10 speed shimano. We all know that the above shifts poorly at best. Now the shifting on the ops set up may be better than that but that's not the issue. Outsized claims will be questioned.

Manufacturers do state what works and what doesnit. There seems to be a trend though for people to see what they can get away with (nothing wrong with that) but then declare success and its flawless and they or there supporters put down anyone who raises questions. Winter riders response is a good example here and actually makes forums rather pointless.

It comes down to your definition of flawless.

Chain and cassette wear affects shifting and since the short cage rd has been pushed beyond its limits (top jockey wheel distance will not be constant to the cassette) chain and cassette wear will adversely affect shifting sooner than it would if you kept the cassette with what sram specify for that rear derailleur.

This is common to all derailleur systems when mis matched components are used.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

WinterRider wrote:
alcatraz wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:26 am
Do you want mtb or road shifters?

Is it a 1x or 2x setup?

That rear derailleur is pure crap for that cassette. If you answer the questions we can suggest something good to enable the use of the 46t without sacrificing high gear shifting.

The shifting can't possibly be flawless. With an 11-36 cassette and the wifli red derailleur it's impossible to smoothly shift the highest gears without special modification and "help" like overshifting to make the jump.
Smells.. like a 'pure crap' lob from afar.. unless you've actually built one. Sure issues seem apparent.. yet the guy is enjoying his experiment... 'spend and learn' side. Image

Gets old.. sometimes. 'tude and judgements... ride more.. type less.
You're right. I've never pushed a mech well past it's limits as even an 11-32 on a 9000 rear deraileuer was noticeably less crisp than with a 28 despite it working, I tolerated it for the times it was needed tho. What I have done plenty of is fixing the mess that these kinds of threads cause when people read something and rush out to try it with little to no thought of just how wrong it can go.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

This is not rocket science people, the industry make it seem like it is to convince consumers to buy the latest and priciest item, its a profit science.

Some comments here really seem to be coming from people working in the industry and a little afraid of loosing sales.

I may agree that this setup might be adding a milisecond delay to shift the 3 smaler cogs because of the extra distance with the upper puley (more chain deflection between pulley and cog) but the remaining cogs is as fast as it should be. If I modify with an offset cage (like eagle) I might be able to fix that. Besides, I am a recreational rider so I really don't care about a milisecond delay. Even as a pro I wouldn't mind using this, would prefer this over a battery running out of juice or a ERROR 404 inside an electronic shifter in the middle of a race.

I cannot agree that it would wear faster. If I keep my chain lubed up, drive train clean I really don't see a reason to wear faster. I don't see any extra stress on the RD, the internal spring might be twisting more so the cage can reach the 39t and 46t but that's irrelevant to a wear factor.
Last edited by andreszucs on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Rocket science? No. Best practices for the components to work as intended yes.

Once again, just because you feel it works doesn't mean that it's not compromised. I have no sales at stake from this and nor do most as 99.9% of people have no interest in this kind of experimentation. I make my income outside the industry, I do however work on more bikes than most and can tell you that the on road shifting of that system under proper load will be mediocre at best from first hand experience with similar setups where someone hasn't been able to get it working satisfactorily once off the stand.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:45 pm
Rocket science? No. Best practices for the components to work as intended yes.

Once again, just because you feel it works doesn't mean that it's not compromised. I have no sales at stake from this and nor do most as 99.9% of people have no interest in this kind of experimentation. I make my income outside the industry, I do however work on more bikes than most and can tell you that the on road shifting of that system under proper load will be mediocre at best from first hand experience with similar setups where someone hasn't been able to get it working satisfactorily once off the stand.

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I invite you to put this together and try yourself, happy riding! :thumbup:

alcatraz
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by alcatraz

Actually the offset on the cage could compensate a little for the distance. (1x only)

If you intend to put a 10t pulley you need to see that the back plate of that cage clears the pulley for its full angle operating range.

The pulley is offset in the wrong direction to give you the right action. It should be almost at 8-9 o clock from the pivot point with a larger offset. That way when the chain slackens it digs deep into the gap.

Still the biggest flaw is that the derailleur is aimed at 30t cassettes and being used with 46t.

Road links cause a lot of flex in the derailleur too.

Also the cassette will wear quite unevenly. How much is a new cassette?

Choose a chainring that avoids you staying in the 9-10t cogs too long.
Last edited by alcatraz on Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

alcatraz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:47 am
Actually the offset on the cage could compensate a little for the distance.

If you intend to put a 10t pulley you need to see that the back plate of that cage clears the pulley for its full angle operating range.

The pulley is offset in the wrong direction to give you the right action. It should be almost at 9 o clock from the pivot point. Not 6 'o clock. That way when the chain slackens it digs deep into the gap.
Yes I also observed that, the angle found on those after market cages is wrong. I'll try...last plan will be to design/3d print one with the correct angle.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

andreszucs wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:45 pm
Rocket science? No. Best practices for the components to work as intended yes.

Once again, just because you feel it works doesn't mean that it's not compromised. I have no sales at stake from this and nor do most as 99.9% of people have no interest in this kind of experimentation. I make my income outside the industry, I do however work on more bikes than most and can tell you that the on road shifting of that system under proper load will be mediocre at best from first hand experience with similar setups where someone hasn't been able to get it working satisfactorily once off the stand.

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I invite you to put this together and try yourself, happy riding! Image
I have had worked on similar in the past with an 11s shifter, hence my XX mech recommendation. Clearly your idea of acceptable and mine are worlds appart as it shifted like a pile of crap under load regardless of what was done to it.

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andreszucs
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by andreszucs

Nefarious86 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:55 am
andreszucs wrote:
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:45 pm
Rocket science? No. Best practices for the components to work as intended yes.

Once again, just because you feel it works doesn't mean that it's not compromised. I have no sales at stake from this and nor do most as 99.9% of people have no interest in this kind of experimentation. I make my income outside the industry, I do however work on more bikes than most and can tell you that the on road shifting of that system under proper load will be mediocre at best from first hand experience with similar setups where someone hasn't been able to get it working satisfactorily once off the stand.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
I invite you to put this together and try yourself, happy riding! Image
I have had worked on similar in the past with an 11s shifter, hence my XX mech recommendation. Clearly your idea of acceptable and mine are worlds appart as it shifted like a pile of crap under load regardless of what was done to it.

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life is about dealing with crap anyways, I'm ok with this kind of crap....thanks for stopping by.

by Weenie


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