Fit changes to improve bike handling?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

zefs wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:18 pm
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:06 pm
Personally I can't understand why a bike fitter put someone that's 179cm on a 56cm frame with a 120mm stem. That seems insane to me.
Probably because of long arms as mentioned.
I also think it could be because, as a triathlete, I spend about 1/2 of my riding time and the majority of my "quality" riding time in a very forward position on my TT bike. So my road bike fit might have me slightly more forward over the BB than normal as I feel more powerful in this forward position. On my Canyon, my saddle is basicly as far forward as it will go (as also run a stub nose Power saddle). I was initially set up with the saddle about 2 cm further back and running the 100cm stem that came with the bike and it felt like I was sitting in a recliner. I don't recal how it impacted handling really.

What I do find perplexing though, is why the Ultimate and the Palace handle so differently despite the contact points being quite similar. Looking at my VeloAngle sheets, position over the BB is the same, but handlebars are ~1cm lower and 1cm longer on the Palace:R.

With respect to the Aeroad, I'm going to try lowering the Palace another 1cm, to approximate the lower riding position of the Aeroad for a couple weeks and see how that goes. It does seem like I feel more in control of the bike with the Palace's lower riding position eventhough according to people here, that shouldn't really have any bearing on handling.

by Weenie


DJT21
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:35 pm

by DJT21

Of course a longer and lower position has an effect on handling as it allows your body to sit in a different position. Too high and short and you end up too upright which negatively affects handling. A really forward saddle position with a steep seat angle and still using 25mm of spacers seems odd, as normally a forward saddle position is what you'd use to get a really low bar position. Also seems strange that the bar positions are different yet your saddle position is the same on both bikes?

You haven't posted your saddle height either, there's always a chance it's too high.

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MayhemSWE
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden

by MayhemSWE

wintershade wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 pm
I also think it could be because, as a triathlete, I spend about 1/2 of my riding time and the majority of my "quality" riding time in a very forward position on my TT bike. So my road bike fit might have me slightly more forward over the BB than normal as I feel more powerful in this forward position. On my Canyon, my saddle is basicly as far forward as it will go (as also run a stub nose Power saddle). I was initially set up with the saddle about 2 cm further back and running the 100cm stem that came with the bike and it felt like I was sitting in a recliner. I don't recal how it impacted handling really.
Well there you have it. You've set the bike up far from how its designers intended, and you're surprised it handles like crap? Stop trying to shoehorn a tri fit onto a road bike, set it up like a road bike or it will not handle like one. Otherwise you may as well stick to your tri bike.

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

My saddle height is 755mm.

Here is a picture of my position. Not sure if this is helpful or not.....

Image

FWIW - My fitter said this was the best fit, not just because it will be easy to cross over between the TT bike and the Ultimate, but from a pure numbers perspective... just working up from the foot/cleat position, knee position over spindle, ass comfort, shoulder/neck position, etc. I'm very comfortable sitting on the bike, just not with how it handles. Does this just mean the Ultimate doesn't "fit". What would then?
Attachments
Canyon.JPG

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

MayhemSWE wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:12 pm
wintershade wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 pm
I also think it could be because, as a triathlete, I spend about 1/2 of my riding time and the majority of my "quality" riding time in a very forward position on my TT bike. So my road bike fit might have me slightly more forward over the BB than normal as I feel more powerful in this forward position. On my Canyon, my saddle is basicly as far forward as it will go (as also run a stub nose Power saddle). I was initially set up with the saddle about 2 cm further back and running the 100cm stem that came with the bike and it felt like I was sitting in a recliner. I don't recal how it impacted handling really.
Well there you have it. You've set the bike up far from how its designers intended, and you're surprised it handles like crap? Stop trying to shoehorn a tri fit onto a road bike, set it up like a road bike or it will not handle like one. Otherwise you may as well stick to your tri bike.
I don't know man... it's not like a 120mm stem is freakishly long. And having my saddle all the way forward on the stock 15mm setback seatpost is not really much different than having the saddle centered on a zero-setback post..... And I have the Palace essentially set up the same way (just a little lower, longer) and it handles great. There is something off about the Canyon handling for me. Fortunately, I have a friend who is eager to buy it!

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

Maybe it's different wheel/tire/air pressures combination? Your fit looks good.
Last edited by zefs on Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Karvalo
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

wintershade wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:24 pm
I also think it could be because, as a triathlete, I spend about 1/2 of my riding time and the majority of my "quality" riding time in a very forward position on my TT bike. So my road bike fit might have me slightly more forward over the BB than normal as I feel more powerful in this forward position. On my Canyon, my saddle is basicly as far forward as it will go (as also run a stub nose Power saddle). I was initially set up with the saddle about 2 cm further back and running the 100cm stem that came with the bike and it felt like I was sitting in a recliner. I don't recal how it impacted handling really.

What I do find perplexing though, is why the Ultimate and the Palace handle so differently despite the contact points being quite similar. Looking at my VeloAngle sheets, position over the BB is the same, but handlebars are ~1cm lower and 1cm longer on the Palace:R.
Are you running a zero setback post on the Palace and a layback on the Canyon?

Otherwise what you're saying doesn't make sense. Again, the STA on the Canyon is 0.8d steeper than the Palace, so if you're running it slammed forwards and with a Power how can the Bowman be in the same place?

I think you should put away the VeloAngle sheets for now and break out a physical tapemeasure...

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

1) Yes, you are extremely far forward on your bike in that photo.
2) The stubbiness of the Power saddle doesn’t matter. You wouldn’t be sitting on that missing section or clamping the rails at that missing section anyway.
3) Either learn how to handle your bike in this position, or change it, or go slow. Since I actually have a long torso and also have adopted a “forward” position on my bike, I’ve learned to deal with how shifts in balance and loose surfaces result in greater steering input.
4) You should be better at descending with a long and low body position since your weight is over the front tire and your CoG is lower.

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MayhemSWE
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden

by MayhemSWE

wintershade wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:29 pm
I don't know man... it's not like a 120mm stem is freakishly long. And having my saddle all the way forward on the stock 15mm setback seatpost is not really much different than having the saddle centered on a zero-setback post..... And I have the Palace essentially set up the same way (just a little lower, longer) and it handles great. There is something off about the Canyon handling for me.
No a 120 mm stem is not excessively long, it's the combination with your far forward saddle. Road bikes with steep seattubes are normally intended to be used with setback seatposts. Sure it is only a few centimeters, but those centimeters matter. Hell the differences between an aero and an endurance frame can be smaller…

Again, only comparing to myself here, but we have very similar body measurements, same frame (aside from rim vs disc brake), similar cockpit and saddle… Reach to the bars is about identical but my bars are 4 cm lower, while at the same time my saddle is both further back (at least 3 cm) and higher up (2 cm).

In the photo your arms look very straight like you are almost bracing against the bars. Do you not feel a lot of pressure on your hands and/or forearms, or do you have a very well trained core? It may not be a Superman position but relatively speaking it might as well be.

zefs
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

Also similar proportions here, using a 35mm offset seatpost and the Power almost all the way back to not slip on a 74 STA bike.

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

MayhemSWE wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:31 pm

Again, only comparing to myself here, but we have very similar body measurements, same frame (aside from rim vs disc brake), similar cockpit and saddle… Reach to the bars is about identical but my bars are 4 cm lower, while at the same time my saddle is both further back (at least 3 cm) and higher up (2 cm).

In the photo your arms look very straight like you are almost bracing against the bars. Do you not feel a lot of pressure on your hands and/or forearms, or do you have a very well trained core? It may not be a Superman position but relatively speaking it might as well be.
Hmm, interesting point. I do get a fair bit of hand numbness and shoulder fatigue "bracing" myself in that position. But wouldn't I feel even more elongated with straight arms if I moved back my saddle and got rid of my 25mm spacer stack? Or do you have the stock 100mm stem, so basicly you're just moving everything back by 2cm? At a minumum, sounds like a worthwhile experiment!

spartacus
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

Move your saddle back a few cm and slam the stem

DJT21
Posts: 318
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:35 pm

by DJT21

I must admit, my first thought when I saw the picture was you're quite far forward and upright with locked out arms, none of which will make for good handling.

Top three in the Giro, they all have bent, relaxed looking arms.

Image

Image

Image

Karvalo
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

wintershade wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:44 pm
I'm very comfortable sitting on the bike, just not with how it handles....
...
...Hmm, interesting point. I do get a fair bit of hand numbness and shoulder fatigue "bracing" myself in that position.
You're determined not to make this easy, aren't you? :wink:

by Weenie


TheRich
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Karvalo wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:16 pm
wintershade wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:01 pm
I've actually heard low headtubes handle worse?
Even as a general rule, why would that be the case?
It would have an effect on confidence, that's for sure. At least initially, maybe the rider would get used to it, maybe they wouldn't.

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