Cycling Shoes, again. Flat-ish Feet edition?

[akaspin]

Ressurecting topic. After steroid therapy my feet become wider and flat (280x102 mm). Especially left. For now I'm using Lake CX403-X (wide). I have "stay-on-pipe" effect. Also I feel that my left forefoot pushed to outside. Tried custom insoles (gebiomized - not recommend). After heavy heat mold and insole modification (with bloody sandpaper) both effects reduced but still in place.

Now I'm opting to new shoes with less heel lift and straight sole. Infortunately in Berlin bikeshops are dead and I need to order-online-and-return cycle. My current candidates are:

1. Shimano S-Phyre RC902. Wide or regular.
2. S-Works 7 wide.
3. Any other?

What should order first?

The Lakes are the most comfy shoes I used, by far. Truly wide and minimal vibration through the sole. Of course nothing comes free and they are heavy. My larger foot is 280x110 and I use 45 wide. I also have Shimano R321 (came before sphyre) in 45 regular, upper is roomy enough but sole too narrow at 95mm. Had Bont in 44.5 regular, too small, I should feel perfect in 45 wide i think.
Recently demoed the Sphyre in 45 wide - big disppointment. The sole is still only 95mm or so and the upper is more restrictive than the old version in regular. Esp small toes are squisehed in hard, they went for a classic Italian shoe shape....
The sworks might have a bit more room but so far I couldn't find out if the actual sole is wider than a shimano. I think that part is very important too. FOr example I have some narrowish running shoes with a knit upper (adidas ultra boost) - the upper splays super easily but my ball of the foot still feel very bad because of the narrow sole.

Are you tried S-Works 7 regular or wide? What size?

[Alexandrumarian]

Are you tried S-Works 7 regular or wide? What size?

No, I did not get a chance yet. All I know from previous research is that some users report slightly more space in the sworks at the same size, which is also consistent with the size charts. I also do not know how much arch support they have built in.

I can tell you the Shimano have support in the carbon. Maybe a bit less than Lake but definitly not great for a flat foot. In a lake you can mold the sides and the heel opening but not much yuou can do about the lower extra thick area. I think you might have more luck flatening a Bont.

[akaspin]

Are you tried S-Works 7 regular or wide? What size?

No, I did not get a chance yet. All I know from previous research is that some users report slightly more space in the sworks at the same size, which is also consistent with the size charts. I also do not know how much arch support they have built in.

I can tell you the Shimano have support in the carbon. Maybe a bit less than Lake but definitly not great for a flat foot. In a lake you can mold the sides and the heel opening but not much yuou can do about the lower extra thick area. I think you might have more luck flatening a Bont.

Yep. I was really happy with my good old-fashioned spesh shoes before steroid therapy that made my feet slighly wider and much flatter (left arch completelly collapses under load). Overpronation is included The Lakes that I bought during corona is comfy, wide and really nice. But heel lift and stay-on-the-pipe effect is killing me.

[stevesbike]

Have you tried GIro shoes? They use a neutral last and build in arch support through their adjustable insoles.

[akaspin]

Have you tried GIro shoes? They use a neutral last and build in arch support through their adjustable insoles.

I tried Giro in Standert store in Berlin. No "pipe effect". But Giros is just a bit narrow. My feet is 280x102 mm and falls between regular and narrow.

[akaspin]

OK. I finally solved my riddle. As I suspected the human factor is the key.

All inputs refer to my left foot (flat and pronated):

1. ”Stay on pipe" effect: high pressure on the top of lateral (outside) arch. Rear of midfoot.
2. High pressure under 1st metatarsal.
3. Whole forefoot is not fixed. Balls and toes bumps during pedaling.
4. Foot length is 280 mm. 44 EU size.

Note that I haven’t these issues till my steroid therapy year ago that turn my left feet more flat and pronated.

Now one dirty truth about shoes, insoles, bikeshops and bikefitters: nobody tell you how shoes should fit. You can usually hear: “Few millimetres before longer finger, enough room in toebox, snug fit, mildly invasive arch support.” Bad news: it’s useless.

The first main measurement for *any* shoes is heel to ball - distance between the rear of the heel and center of first metatarsal. If your metatarsals doesn’t fit exactly between arch and toe spring - your forefoot *will* move. Regardless of arch support, metatarsal pad, any wedges and cleat position. If arch is shorter - your metatarsals will bump and heel will not receive the necessary load. If arch is longer - metatarsals and toes will rub against insole. In both cases you’ll feel “stay on tube”. Just before the heel in first case and in front of midfoot in second.

The proper way to measure heel to ball is Brannock Device. The funny is that nobody in bikeshops and nobody of bikefitters have it. The more funny is that I found Brannock Device in one bikeshop. But stuff doesn’t know how to use it. Even more funny is that no one of shoes of insoles manufacturers never provide any info and numbers about this.

When I measured heel to ball of my feet I found that right foot size is 45 and left (damn) is 46. Short toes, discrepancy. Nice. So. I put the shim under insole in area under metatarsal bones and problem vent gone. The shim thickness is selected in such a way that eliminate “stay on pipe” in rear of midfoot but not have it in front of midfoot.

[corky]

Don't know what 'stay on pipe' means........can you explain?

I know of at least one UK bike shop that uses a Brannock device, but they also sell g8 insoles and are very bike fit centric.

Glad you are fixing your problems. As you have identified, foot stabilisation is key to resolving a lot of fit related issues and pedalling efficiency, I too have been on a journey and know that arch support,met pads and cleat location are crucial for me.

[akaspin]

Don't know what 'stay on pipe' means........can you explain?

I know of at least one UK bike shop that uses a Brannock device, but they also sell g8 insoles and are very bike fit centric.

Glad you are fixing your problems. As you have identified, foot stabilisation is key to resolving a lot of fit related issues and pedalling efficiency, I too have been on a journey and know that arch support,met pads and cleat location are crucial for me.

Take the pipe. Put it under arch. Stand on it. You are very lucky if you found experienced specialist.

Of course navicular support, met pads, cleat location and other also makes sense. But only after proper fit of all contact arch points. Foot should be stable during pedaling regardless of any insole features. Even with loosened closure.

[corky]

Don't know what 'stay on pipe' means........can you explain?

I know of at least one UK bike shop that uses a Brannock device, but they also sell g8 insoles and are very bike fit centric.

Glad you are fixing your problems. As you have identified, foot stabilisation is key to resolving a lot of fit related issues and pedalling efficiency, I too have been on a journey and know that arch support,met pads and cleat location are crucial for me.

Take the pipe. Put it under arch. Stand on it. You are very lucky if you found experienced specialist.

Of course navicular support, met pads, cleat location and other also makes sense. But only after proper fit of all contact arch points. Foot should be stable during pedaling regardless of any insole features. Even with loosened closure.

Ahh ok I understand.... totally agree re. Foot stability

[Roadbiker10]

I have wide and flat feet and have experienced the same issue, pain on the outside of the mid-foot due to intrusive arch support that spans the width of the mid-foot. Your description of “standing on a pipe” is spot-on. Particularly shoes where the arch is carbon and raised. Lake CX237 and CX241 have been terrific. Giro, Bont, and Lake 402 not so much. I use the variable insert Giro insoles with the least height.

Sorry to revive this thread but I feel this post relates to my situation.

I have been looking for wider shoes(have created a thread about it named "Lake shoes wide feet". I just got the CX241 in the mail today. They are great widthwise buy I am worried about the arch being too high.

I have pain in the right outside midfoot area. The doctor said that too high arches could cause pain on the outside of the foot. I'm not sure about the "pipe under the foot" thing because my right foot hurts in that area all the time anyway. I don't seem to feel anything like that on the left foot, in the Lakes.

Since you are saying you had this issue with other shoes, I assume the arch height built in the sole isn't that high on the Lakes. I can't really discern how high they really are. My arches aren't superlow according to the doctor but he says my feet are very flexible so it becomes kind of low when I put my foot down.

[Alexandrumarian]

I have pain in the right outside midfoot area. The doctor said that too high arches could cause pain on the outside of the foot. I'm not sure about the "pipe under the foot" thing because my right foot hurts in that area all the time anyway.

I have this too for a few months now. Doc said peroneal tendon inflammation. My foot is dead flat on the outside, which doesn't match the shoes too well, I have 402. My inner arch is around medium, so it fits ok with the shoe in that area, not so great on the outside. I never felt anything off in the first couple years of use, so I could guess a different cause. One time i had to walk about 1km in the cycling shoes and that gave me a monster act-up of my morton neuroma (developed while using too narrow shoes). Maybe I damaged the tendon around that time and just didn't notice it until later. I don't feel that on pipe effect when riding, only walking. Again to avoid triggering the morton i now totally avoid walking with the cleats. I get down in my yard in slippers etc

Something like the 238 might be better not necesarily from having less outside arch but also from less lateral compression in the midfoot. I really want a pair and if the turn out to be too sloppy - perfect for winter use with thick wool socks.

[Roadbiker10]

I have pain in the right outside midfoot area. The doctor said that too high arches could cause pain on the outside of the foot. I'm not sure about the "pipe under the foot" thing because my right foot hurts in that area all the time anyway.

I have this too for a few months now. Doc said peroneal tendon inflammation. My foot is dead flat on the outside, which doesn't match the shoes too well, I have 402. My inner arch is around medium, so it fits ok with the shoe in that area, not so great on the outside. I never felt anything off in the first couple years of use, so I could guess a different cause. One time i had to walk about 1km in the cycling shoes and that gave me a monster act-up of my morton neuroma (developed while using too narrow shoes). Maybe I damaged the tendon around that time and just didn't notice it until later. I don't feel that on pipe effect when riding, only walking. Again to avoid triggering the morton i now totally avoid walking with the cleats. I get down in my yard in slippers etc

Something like the 238 might be better not necesarily from having less outside arch but also from less lateral compression in the midfoot. I really want a pair and if the turn out to be too sloppy - perfect for winter use with thick wool socks.

Yeah I got the same diagnosis, although I also have some issues with the Plantar Fascia, as I also have some pain in the heel. I am also not sure that I got my issues from cycling shoes either.

I just started cycling again after 3 weeks of and I have noticed that I have much more pain when walking than cycling. I have felt some discomfort in that area for a while before it acted up really badly. Now that you say that, mine are also completely flat on the outside but I always thought everyones feet were that way. I also avoid walking in cycling shoes and walk to my bike in slippers.

I haven't put much pressure on the foot when cycling though since I have gone easy. For these 3 rides I have done since I started up again, I have been riding in my Giro Prolight Techlace, which surprisingly have not been uncomfortable even though they are narrow. I think it's because of the material not being that rigid.

I have not tried the CX241 nor the CX201 but I think I am going to keep both so that I have something to fall back on if the 241 don't work because of the arch. The 201 are made to work for flatter feet.

At least I know that my issues aren't caused by high arches on shoes because I never had any with a built in arch support. I've used Mavic Cosmic Pro and Scott TT Road in the past. The Giros I just bought recently.

[Roadbiker10]

So the 238 have a lower arch then you say. The issue with them would almost certanly be the heel width. Do you know if the 332 have the same height arch as the 241? And what about the 402? I know you had issues with the arch of the 402 but I'm not sure if all the mid to high end shoes have the same arch. I would like to ask Lake support about this but they haven't answered my question on why the 332 Wide were much narrower than stated so I'm not counting on a response from them.

[rothwem]

So, I'll update my own thread a little bit.

The RP9s with a specialized insert did pretty well on my arches, but the shape of the heel cup irritated my achillies tendon. Since my arch was feeling better from using the Shimanos, I decided to try the Giros again to fix the achillies issue. 3 rides into using the Giros though, the lateral arch pain came back HARD and I've been struggling to get rid of it for the last 6 months. The doctor said it was the "lateral band" of the plantar fascia that was irritated, not the peroneal tendon. I think its interesting that's other cyclists have this issue, there's almost no literature about it on the internet.

Weirdly enough, my mountain bike Giros (Code E70s, which supposedly have the same sole as the Trans E70 just with treads) don't have this issue at all, so my rehab plan has consisted of riding my gravel bike on the road with SPDs so I can use my mountain bike shoes. Once these ones wear out, I'm not sure what I'm going to do though. Giro has added the bowed sole shape to their MTB lineup now and so has Shimano. I bought a set of MTB Lakes, and they also have a bow, but its much less pronounced than the others.

I still don't have a set of road shoes I'm 100% happy with right now either. With all of the money I've spent on shoes I probably could've gone custom by now.

[Roadbiker10]

So, I'll update my own thread a little bit.

The RP9s with a specialized insert did pretty well on my arches, but the shape of the heel cup irritated my achillies tendon. Since my arch was feeling better from using the Shimanos, I decided to try the Giros again to fix the achillies issue. 3 rides into using the Giros though, the lateral arch pain came back HARD and I've been struggling to get rid of it for the last 6 months. The doctor said it was the "lateral band" of the plantar fascia that was irritated, not the peroneal tendon. I think its interesting that's other cyclists have this issue, there's almost no literature about it on the internet.

Weirdly enough, my mountain bike Giros (Code E70s, which supposedly have the same sole as the Trans E70 just with treads) don't have this issue at all, so my rehab plan has consisted of riding my gravel bike on the road with SPDs so I can use my mountain bike shoes. Once these ones wear out, I'm not sure what I'm going to do though. Giro has added the bowed sole shape to their MTB lineup now and so has Shimano. I bought a set of MTB Lakes, and they also have a bow, but its much less pronounced than the others.

I still don't have a set of road shoes I'm 100% happy with right now either. With all of the money I've spent on shoes I probably could've gone custom by now.

Interesting. I've read somewhere that 80% of cyclists have had some kind of foot pain at some point. Or maybe pro cyclists, I'm not sure how you'd get that number but thinking about how narrow shoes used to be and most still are, it's not that much of a stretch to believe those pointy shoes would cause issues for a human foot.

It seems like the RP9 use the same sole as the RC7 that I bought. That's a bummer, 6 months of that after only 3 rides. That's indicates how sensitive those kind of issues can be. Which is why I'm also not sure how to proceed, as to not aggravate it.

When I look at the pic of the Trans, the shape seems like it's ass aggressive as the CX241 to me. I'll post some pics below. Having also bought the CX201, which are made for wide and flat feet. I believe those might work for you. They don't have the arch at all, but the only issue is the wide heel. Although I get much more heel lift on the 241 than the 201, that's pre moulding though.

Here are some pictures to compare. These are CX241 but the MX for mtb are the same.