Are tubeless tires more comfortable than cotton clinchers + latex tubes?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
robertbb
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by robertbb

These comparisons between latex and butyl are a red herring.

Ultralight butyl tubes are indistinguishable from latex tubes in RR performance or comfort, with none of the drawbacks.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Tubs > tubeless > open tubular.

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Pierre86
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by Pierre86

robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:21 am
These comparisons between latex and butyl are a red herring.

Ultralight butyl tubes are indistinguishable from latex tubes in RR performance or comfort, with none of the drawbacks.
They absolutely are not.

Light butyl tubes are slightly better than heavier ones but latex is in another league, and I'd wager you'll puncture more on the butyl than the latex.
The best/latest testing show latex to be near indistinguishable from tubeless in terms of RR
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BikeEatSleepRepeat
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by BikeEatSleepRepeat

Pierre86 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:45 am
robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:21 am
These comparisons between latex and butyl are a red herring.

Ultralight butyl tubes are indistinguishable from latex tubes in RR performance or comfort, with none of the drawbacks.
They absolutely are not.

Light butyl tubes are slightly better than heavier ones but latex is in another league, and I'd wager you'll puncture more on the butyl than the latex.
The best/latest testing show latex to be near indistinguishable from tubeless in terms of RR
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robertbb
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by robertbb

We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.

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BikeEatSleepRepeat
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by BikeEatSleepRepeat

robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am
We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.
All due respect, we distribute Vredestein SuperLite Latex tubes on eBay and they are incredibly consistent, suprisingly durable and finished top flight.

No butyl compares for comfort, nor RR and that's a proven scientific fact.

Pierre86
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by Pierre86

robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am
We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.
You can disagree if you'd like, but that just makes you objectively wrong. Latex is 8x more elastic than butyl, it's significantly faster and no butyl tube comes close.

Tubeless is the only thing that comes close and even then most differences are within the test margins.
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robertbb
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by robertbb

Pierre86 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:25 am
robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am
We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.
You can disagree if you'd like, but that just makes you objectively wrong.
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

Wasn't the statement that latex tube are inconsistent come from Enve so they don't have to honor any reliability of keeping rim not too hot and not having any sharp edge?
Then later Enve also flame 'open tubular' style tires to be dangerous (because Enve rims have sharp edge that can dig into soft supple tire sidewall).
Most other brands don't say a thing about using latex tube and 'open tubular' style tires. Maybe they just round off their rim to have no sharp edges, and making sure to control the temperature well. Maybe.

In my experience, Super light butyl tube is the easiest one to get flat on. They are thin and don't have even a quarter of stretchability of latex. Thin latex tube (Vredestein) is about the same level as normal weight butyl tube. Then thick latex tube (Michelin) is actually durable. I really impress when the latex tube survive a rim strike that should have pinch normal butyl tube. It only happened a few time so far and i hope not to test this capability further.
Since i now use disc brake, i sure use latex tube. But generally the thicker one. Silca and Michelin mainly. My previous trial of Vredestein wasn't stellar. But maybe i'll try again later.

Comfort, predominantly depends on sidewall of the tire more than the tube itself. Newest generation GP5000 get more comfortable in clincher version than GP4000sII. GP5000 tubeless are less supple than the clincher version. Newer Vittoria non-tubeless ride harsher than the older gen too. Almost like they made it almost tubeless ready except for the bead.

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by spdntrxi

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by izabala

I'm glad I've read many right posts. I tend to obtain muy own conclusions and sometimes differ from the trends. I'm dissapointed with tubeless, Schwalbe Pro One 28 in Trek Domane. Every review I read is amazing, bit I had the suspect after 2000km that were not fast, nor supple in any pressure in the 60...80psi range, quite sluggish in fact, even in bike responsiveness. Previously I once had the same feeling with the Michelin Pro 4 Service Course, and after changing the tyres resulted true they were slow. Well, last day I installed the GP5000-25 in my Trek, 80 Psi, and was an amazing change. Continental Light tubes, and overall fast and what is better, a comfortable tarmac feedback feeling we know about these clinchers.
Tubeless are not faster nor more comfortable for me. Neither disc brakes are absolutely better than good rim brakes, bit it's a different thing.

ryanw
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by ryanw

BikeEatSleepRepeat wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:01 am
robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am
We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.
All due respect, we distribute Vredestein SuperLite Latex tubes on eBay and they are incredibly consistent, suprisingly durable and finished top flight.

No butyl compares for comfort, nor RR and that's a proven scientific fact.
Best latex tubes, I have tried mostly all of them.

I would buy 20 of these at a time from Germany because they were so hard to source and I used them on all my bikes.

Very rarely had a puncture with them (unlike absolute GARBAGE Challange latex tubes) and when paired with S-Works Cottons, they were simply amazing.
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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Nefarious86 wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:41 am
Tubs > tubeless > open tubular.
I did some extensive, though non-scientific testing on this very issue and came to a different conclusion, at least as far as the difference between clincher and tubeless.

I have nerve damage in my big toes (a legacy of frostbite) and can suffer extreme nerve pain if forced to ride for extended periods on a rough surface. In preparation for and endurance event that would be on very rough roads I sought out the tire setup that would be most effective at killing road buzz.

I spent several months comparing Schwalbe Pro One tubeless, and Mavic Yksion UST tubeless against Vittoria Corsa and Compass Chinook Pass Extralight using Vittoria latex inner tubes. The Schwalbe and Mavics were chosen as they were, according to many sources, the most supple of the tubeless tires available at the time. All tires were 28mm and run at 60 - 65psi on 21mm internal diameter rims. The road tests included multiple training rides in excess of 250km predominantly on fairly rough chipseal.

The results were that the Compass tires were best just edging out the Vittoria's. I simply did not get toe pain riding them. Both the Schwalbes and Mavics were somewhat behind with the Mavics being the better of the two - an excellent tire that I currently ride daily. It is noteworthy that the Compass tires had the smallest volume of the lot (the Schwalbe was biggest). My conclusion is that the suppleness of the casing is the critical factor, at least as far as road buzz dampening is concerned.

In the end I opted for the Vittoria's as I felt the larger volume and tougher casing would give added protection against pinch flats at such low pressures. Just prior the the event I panicked and switched to Corsa Control 30mm for the rear and noticed no difference in harshness.

If I had any bias it was toward the tubeless tires for their added puncture protection - a flat in some of areas we rode would have been a super PIA. But even by seat-of-the-pants feel (forgetting about the foot pain) both tubeless tires, while excellent, were still a harsher (more buzzy) ride then both cotton clinchers with latex tubes.

I still believe if you are willing to run a big enough tire at a low enough pressure, that any good tubeless should provide more then adequate comfort for any road application. Big volume (30mm+) is something even good tubulars don't have.
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BikeEatSleepRepeat
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by BikeEatSleepRepeat

ryanw wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:18 pm
BikeEatSleepRepeat wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:01 am
robertbb wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:47 am
We can agree to disagree.

Not all butyl tubes are created equal, nor are all latex tubes.

These blanket statements are typical of forums. So here's a blanket statement of my own:

Latex tubes are too inconsistent in their wall thickness. Doesn't matter which brand. You might get lucky. You might not. Quality butyl tubes are more consistent.
All due respect, we distribute Vredestein SuperLite Latex tubes on eBay and they are incredibly consistent, suprisingly durable and finished top flight.

No butyl compares for comfort, nor RR and that's a proven scientific fact.
Best latex tubes, I have tried mostly all of them.

I would buy 20 of these at a time from Germany because they were so hard to source and I used them on all my bikes.

Very rarely had a puncture with them (unlike absolute GARBAGE Challange latex tubes) and when paired with S-Works Cottons, they were simply amazing.
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