Are tubeless tires more comfortable than cotton clinchers + latex tubes?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Marin
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by Marin

1415chris wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:52 am
That is more less within my thinking. Yet the tests show that these stiffer tyres are faster than supple ones. And completely mind-bogggling for me is how Conti 5K tl with its 60 tpi is even faster. 60 tpi puts this tyre within garden hose category.
The arguably most supple tires are made by Panaracer (branded as Faiweather, Grand Bois, Compass, etc.) and also have a low TPI count.

JoO
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by JoO

ichobi wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:47 am
zefs wrote:You need something like cobbles for a supple tire (or using less air pressure) to win over a stiffer tire (or one that has more air pressure in it).
Most simple road vibrations wouldn't count on making a 320tpi faster so that is why GP5K wins, because even at 60tpi the compound itself they use is faster. For training, all day comfort would be a better choice than a bit faster rolling tire though.
I don't doubt this as more comfort does not necessarily means being faster even though the 320tpi casing may offer good vibration damping (hence less micro bouncing and thus higher efficiency) a fast compound might still win out on pure speed. The Continental tt tires are vulcanized and they are one of the fastest too.

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And in the red corner we have Bicycle rolling resistance:
tested on drums: compound trumps supple casing and more pressure is less rolling resistance

And in the blue corner we have jan Heine:
field tested but biased because he sells his own tires: supple casing trumps compound and less pressure is less rolling resistance

The "in betweeners": Josh Poertner and Tom Anhalt

by Weenie


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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

What we need is a tire with GP5K compound on 320TPI casing!

dim
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Location: Cambridge UK

by dim

good thread

I've had several pairs of Specialized Turbo Cottons, I'm currently using Conti GP 5000 TL (25mm wide) on my Trek Emonda, and have Conti GP 5000 clinchers (32mm wide) on my Miyata

I've used IRC tubeless, Vittoria tyres etc etc

to be honest, they have all been comfortable .... suppose it boils down to the pressure of the tyres, the frame and most importantly the saddle that you use ... wider tyres at lower pressure is more comfortable than narrower tyres (I'm not talking about heavy tyres such as Marathon Plus and the likes)
Trek Emonda SL6
Miyata One Thousand

ichobi
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by ichobi

I guess only one way to find out is to just ride them. I just ordered a pair of the GP5000 tlr.

My specific set up is S-Works Tarmac SL6, Specialized S-Works Power Arc saddle, and Roval CLX32 wheels. Regardless of the tires this set up is supremely comfortalbe already because the CLX32 has an inner rim width of 21mm, one of the largest in the market, and allows the tires to sit very wide, hence low air pressure needed.

I weight 66kg and run 70-80 psi depending on the road. Usual tires are either Vittoria Corsa G+ or the Turbo Cotton. Both run latex tubes from Bontrager or Vittoria.
The turbo cotton is always a better riding tire than the Corsa G+ but also considerably more expensive and less durability.

I only use 24mm or 25mm tires as I ride mostly normal paved road. 28mm feels a bit too sluggish for me.

I guess the precise term I should be using in my OP question is not which one is more comfortable (latex tube + cotton clinchers vs high end tubeless like the GP5000) but rather, which one gives you a more 'sublime' feel, while retaining very low rolling resistance. The only candidate for the tubeless tires is of course the GP5000 TLR if we are going by the bicyclerollingresistance.com test result.

I know this is stepping into the pretentious connoisseur territory but I guess this is the only online road bike forum where we can discuss this fine details of the thnigs we like.

thelorax121
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by thelorax121

This may be a bit of drift, but I have never understood how running a road tire at the lower pressures tubeless allows can make it faster. Running clinchers on the low end of the recommended pressures with latex tubes, they squish quite a bit under load and I can see the increased surface area on the road. This always makes them feel sluggish to me.

I understand the tech for gravel etc, but for road use it seems like just adding the hassle of sealant with little benefit. Maybe better puncture protection and saving of a few grams?

zefs
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by zefs

The difference based on data (GP5K) is 2w (per tire) which is equal to using 20psi less, atleast on the drum roll test.
So you gain comfort without loosing speed compared to the same tire tubed.

A tire like the GP5K can be used even at 60psi and be fast and comfortable, but a slow tubed tire at these pressures will be sluggish.

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Miller
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by Miller

thelorax121 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm
This may be a bit of drift, but I have never understood how running a road tire at the lower pressures tubeless allows can make it faster. Running clinchers on the low end of the recommended pressures with latex tubes, they squish quite a bit under load and I can see the increased surface area on the road. This always makes them feel sluggish to me.
I don't know if it makes them faster but from my own experience (tubeless since 2015) it doesn't make them slower. Even though tubeless tyres to date have been noticeably heavier than equivalent clincher they have a supple ride feel that with clincher I've only had on cotton open tubular. And cotton open tyres gave me many, many infuriating punctures* which use of tubeless has almost completely erased from my life.

* In 2007 Vittoria released a 25mm version of their Open Corsa which I purchased as soon as stock was available. Summer 2007 was also famously wet here in the UK. Christ, I never had so many punctures as I did that summer with that tyre.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

thelorax121 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm
This may be a bit of drift, but I have never understood how running a road tire at the lower pressures tubeless allows can make it faster. Running clinchers on the low end of the recommended pressures with latex tubes, they squish quite a bit under load and I can see the increased surface area on the road. This always makes them feel sluggish to me.

I understand the tech for gravel etc, but for road use it seems like just adding the hassle of sealant with little benefit. Maybe better puncture protection and saving of a few grams?

Ever notice how tires pumped to higher pressures make a lot of noise? Sound = vibration = energy that doesn’t go toward moving forward. Also humans are fragile and we feel sensations like discomfort. Discomfort can lead to lower power or lower endurance. On top of that, have you ever railed a tight corner on 28mm tires at 60psi vs 23mm tires at 100psi?

That sluggish feeling is a placebo.

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TonyM
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by TonyM

The world is not black or white.

And it depends on many variables, like the tarmac quality, the rider’s weight, the fitness of the rider, the weather, the brand/ model of the tires/ tubes, the type of wheels, the expectations on tires etc..., the length of the rides, the number of km/miles per year, the numbers of wheelsets to manage, etc....

But each time the Marketing departments want us to believe that they have found THE solution to ALL problems....LOL

If you are very happy with your setup, don’t change and continue to ride. If you want to try, then try. If you are not happy, try it.

JoO
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 7:30 am

by JoO

thelorax121 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:02 pm
This may be a bit of drift, but I have never understood how running a road tire at the lower pressures tubeless allows can make it faster. Running clinchers on the low end of the recommended pressures with latex tubes, they squish quite a bit under load and I can see the increased surface area on the road. This always makes them feel sluggish to me.

I understand the tech for gravel etc, but for road use it seems like just adding the hassle of sealant with little benefit. Maybe better puncture protection and saving of a few grams?
Our tires are our only way of suspension.
Even F1 cars riding on the smoothest tarmac have suspension.
I would suggest reading
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/01/ ... is-faster/
and
https://blog.silca.cc/asymmetric-effect ... timization

thelorax121
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by thelorax121

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:56 pm

Ever notice how tires pumped to higher pressures make a lot of noise? Sound = vibration = energy that doesn’t go toward moving forward. Also humans are fragile and we feel sensations like discomfort. Discomfort can lead to lower power or lower endurance. On top of that, have you ever railed a tight corner on 28mm tires at 60psi vs 23mm tires at 100psi?

That sluggish feeling is a placebo.
That makes sense, I'll need to try a comparison timing the same route with both and see what the empirical data says vs perception
Last edited by thelorax121 on Mon May 27, 2019 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thelorax121
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Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm

by thelorax121

JoO wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:34 pm

Our tires are our only way of suspension.
Even F1 cars riding on the smoothest tarmac have suspension.
I would suggest reading
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/01/ ... is-faster/
and
https://blog.silca.cc/asymmetric-effect ... timization
Great links, thanks!

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Kjetil
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by Kjetil

Concur. Nice to learn something new.
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zefs
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by zefs

It's a bit a contradictive though, saying that suspension losses and bouncing makes you slower, then saying lower pressures are not slower than higher pressures on smooth tarmac. If you use low enough pressures (for your weight that is) to be super comfortable, the bike will bounce when applying power on the downstroke, and the effect will increase the more downward power you apply = this sluggish feeling which is indeed slower. But then, using a comfortable pressure can lead to being faster overall since you will probably be less fatigued.

by Weenie


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