Is Ti the solution?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Berzin1
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:35 pm

by Berzin1

addictR1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:35 am
@Berzin1 which model of lynskey did you get?



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The 2019 R480.

by Weenie


addictR1
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 am

by addictR1

Berzin1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:48 pm
The 2019 R480.
interesting.. i was looking at the R480 as well. how does that ride? does it ride too stiff? how about weight wise? i've heard lynskey is kinda porky.

is the R480 their aero version? i see the downtube is kinda diamond shaped instead of round tubing. any reason why you didn't go for the helix?

in general any of these Ti frame can accept wide carbon rims? my reynolds 72 tubular are 26.2mm wide.
Last edited by addictR1 on Fri May 10, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joeyb1000
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

by joeyb1000

I'd throw Holland into the mix here.

Karvalo
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Bordcla wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:58 am
Are these bikes truly as sturdy/indestructible as the web would have us believe?
Depends entirely on the manufacturing. An overheated Ti weld will crack, it's just a matter of time. For instance I've never seen as many warranties on a bike as with the Van Nic Blaze, where they all cracked on the massive weld between the BB and aero downtube inside the space of a couple of seasons.

addictR1
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 am

by addictR1

joeyb1000 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:07 pm
I'd throw Holland into the mix here.
now why did you have to do that for?? lol... holland is also on my bucket list.. but it may be out of my price range.. looking to speed about 1.5-1.8 max, since i have to get a lightweight fork, headset, etc..

thelorax121
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:00 pm

by thelorax121

You can find new Lynskeys pretty cheap on eBay if you are patient, and they come with a great warranty (not that you'd likely need it)

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2963
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

http://tredbikes.com/bikes/

I like the steel frame, but these bikes are really expensive.
If i'd buy a metal frame, i'd go for alu or possiby steel.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

mattr
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

thelorax121 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:02 pm
You can find new Lynskeys pretty cheap on eBay if you are patient, and they come with a great warranty (not that you'd likely need it)
:) There was a spate of cracked lynskeys a few years ago (2014/15 i think) then another batch about 8-9 years ago as well.

Titanium fails, just like all the other materials.
Karvalo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 6:21 pm
Bordcla wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 2:58 am
Are these bikes truly as sturdy/indestructible as the web would have us believe?
Depends entirely on the manufacturing.
Ti tubing is a shit to weld. Has to be just so. Bit like 753 used to be BITD. Too hot, too cold, too dirty, too long, too short. Then you get a crack.

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pdlpsher1
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Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

mattr wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Bit like 753 used to be BITD. Too hot, too cold, too dirty, too long, too short. Then you get a crack.
Yeah I remember the 753. I have a friend who had a 753 bike and that bike was oh so light with tubs. One has to be certified by Reynolds to braze 753 tubes. I don't think the 753 ever caught on. Great tubing but it wasn't intended for mass production.

Yes Ti requires a lot of care during welding. Generally a thicker tubing will be more tolerent of any welding defects. When you build an ultralight Ti frame then you start to see problems. There are also two types of Ti welds- single and double pass. Double pass requires less heat but it's more time-consuming. Single pass uses more current so the heat-affected zone is greater. The first pass of a double pass weld is called the fusion weld, where no filler material is used. Then a second pass called a 'dress pass' is done using a filler rod. If you are using a thicker tubing then single pass is OK. But most importantly the welding area has to be extremely clean and contaminant free whether it's single or double pass weld. When it's properly designed and manufactured Ti is very durable. But just like any material it can fail when it's not properly designed and manufactured.

mattr
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by mattr

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:02 pm
When it's properly designed and manufactured Ti is very durable. But just like any material it can fail when it's not properly designed and manufactured.
Unfortunately, the entire concept of a bike in Ti tubing is essentially all but impossible to design or manufacture "properly", far too many overlapping joins and welds for that. And some of the industry standards mean that you end up with poor weld surfaces/orientations or designs.

So we have to live with compromises. Or go to 3D printed lugs and weld to those. Which would have a few more issues to overcome. But it'd be brilliant to see a road frame made like that.

Ti honeycomb lugs with weld stubs to fit to formed tubes. Size specific stiffness and geometry etc etc. Like the empire bike but no glue ;)

Berzin1
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:35 pm

by Berzin1

addictR1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:34 pm
interesting.. i was looking at the R480 as well. how does that ride? does it ride too stiff? how about weight wise? i've heard lynskey is kinda porky.
It is not comparible to carbon frames, that's for sure. But that's not what I wanted. As for the weight being a detriment to my decision-making process, it never entered the conversation. As for how it rides, the frame/fork still are not back from the painter. And then there is the handlebar I ordered from Cicli Mattio. Ordered the wrong size and I'm still waiting for the exchange to be made.
addictR1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:34 pm
is the R480 their aero version? i see the downtube is kinda diamond shaped instead of round tubing. any reason why you didn't go for the helix?
I don't think it is an aero version, it wasn't specified, but the tubes look aero. I didn't go with the Helix because I wanted their stiffest offering, but I'm sure it will be comfortable enough.
addictR1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:34 pm
in general any of these Ti frame can accept wide carbon rims? my reynolds 72 tubular are 26.2mm wide.
The Lynskey can no problem.

addictR1
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 am

by addictR1

So is litespeed the only one out there that makes a sub 1Kg frame? Or are there others?


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RyanH
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by RyanH

While I stand by my previous ride notes on the T1sl I think for most coming from carbon, going to a T1sl would still be a transforming experience. It's once you've had several Ti bikes that you then see and appreciate the nuances of a good Ti bike (as the person above mentioned about his 3 Sevens). I know that the guy that bought my T1sl is enamored with it. I think more likely if you've had several Ti bikes and then you go to a T1sl, you may be underwhelmed depending on what you're looking for in a frame.

So, to recap my position on the T1sl. I didn't find it harsh. For example, I put the T1sl away for awhile and was primarily riding the Focus which I feel is a good representation of what carbon can be as far as comfort and stiffness go. Before selling the T1sl, I rode it again and was amazed at how much smoother the ride was. This smoothness difference though is lost over time. I think once there's a certain level of smoothness (which the Focus may be at, for example, it's only apparent on back to back riding and then lost over time...you get used to the Focus and forget what TI was like). Now, what I didn't like about the T1sl was that I felt it lost that magical feeling when riding out of the saddle or throwing the bike around. It's what people refer to as the bike's liveliness. It's still more lively than a carbon frame but it's not lively enough to overcome the difference in stiffness of a carbon bike, so I feel you're left in some weird middle ground. For example, the Litespeed Classic I'd rate it's liveliness as a 9 or 10 out of 10 but stiffness probably a 4 or 5 out of 10. I'm going to throw a random guess at my recollection of the T1sl but let's say the T1sl was liveliness of 6 or 7 and stiffness of 7 or so. It doesn't have enough liveliness to overcome the delta on stiffness to a carbon frame I think.

All in all, this is really just due to me being a super f*%king picky person. The T1sl descended great, looked great and had a great weight.

I guess I can break the news here: I have the T3 coming back to me. I bought it back from OldTurd. So I'm looking forward to seeing if it lives up to my recollection of it.

With that being said, addictR1 asked me my thoughts on the T5. I've never had the T5 but I think it's what the Xicon kind of became, which I did own. I liked that bike a lot. I think the T3 is an updated version of the Xicon though, so I'm not sure of the differences between the T3 and T5. It's possible it's mostly just fit differences. If that's the case then all I can say is that the T3 was the one bike that saw over a dozen top end carbon frames come and go during its time.

addictR1
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:11 am

by addictR1

Thanks Ryan for your informative insight and feedback. That’s really helpful.


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by Weenie


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853guy
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

by 853guy

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:02 pm
mattr wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:27 pm
Bit like 753 used to be BITD. Too hot, too cold, too dirty, too long, too short. Then you get a crack.
Yeah I remember the 753. I have a friend who had a 753 bike and that bike was oh so light with tubs. One has to be certified by Reynolds to braze 753 tubes. I don't think the 753 ever caught on. Great tubing but it wasn't intended for mass production.

Yes Ti requires a lot of care during welding. Generally a thicker tubing will be more tolerent of any welding defects. When you build an ultralight Ti frame then you start to see problems. There are also two types of Ti welds- single and double pass. Double pass requires less heat but it's more time-consuming. Single pass uses more current so the heat-affected zone is greater. The first pass of a double pass weld is called the fusion weld, where no filler material is used. Then a second pass called a 'dress pass' is done using a filler rod. If you are using a thicker tubing then single pass is OK. But most importantly the welding area has to be extremely clean and contaminant free whether it's single or double pass weld. When it's properly designed and manufactured Ti is very durable. But just like any material it can fail when it's not properly designed and manufactured.
All the above is true. But as many probably already know, the problem isn't just the skill of the welder, nor impurites (natural oils, lubricants, dirt, etc) on the surface of the titanium.

It's the fact that titanium itself reacts to atmospheric elements, forming a natural layer of protective oxidization when exposed to oxygen, the reason for its corrosion resistance. However, this layer needs to be removed before welding begins, because it melts at a higher temperature and can contaminate the weld. Once welding begins, and the heat-affected zone spreads rapidly, titanium will feed on any oxygen and hydrogen present, further weakening the integrity of the weld. A skilled welder can mitigate this using sheilding gas coverage (usually a 75/25 mix of argon and helium), but not be sure of eliminating it entirely. In other words, the quality of the weld is not determined solely on single/double pass and avoidance of over-heating, but ultimately, what chemical elements are present in the weld.

The only way to completely mitigate atmospheric contamination is to weld titanium in an inert gas (argon) environment within a hyperbaric chamber. Ensuing no oxygen is present during the heating and cooling process means atmospheric contamination is mitigated, allowing the gasses already present in the metal to be released and purged.

I know both Bertoletti and Nevi weld titanium this way. I would never personally purchase a titanium frame, especially a custom one, not welded under hyperbaric conditions.

Best,

853guy

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