Help to choose new Canyon bike

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

Hi everyone,

First post on the website with several questions regarding my new bike. To give you some context, I'm upgrading from a late 2000's Giant TCR. As I'm not getting a new bike often, I would like to pick the right one :-) I went to Koblenz to try Canyon's line-up and the Ultimate seems to be the right choice (although I was also impressed by their Endurace, but I feel like it might be a bit "unsufficient" in terms of performance - any thoughts here?).

They have two outlet bikes currently available in my budget:

#1: Sram eTap v1, disc brakes and Mavic Cosmic Carbon (non-UST, which means I would need to change them as I'd like to go tubeless), or

#2: Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 R9150, disc brakes and Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL UST.

Both seem fantastic but I would appreciate to hear from anyone who experience them. How do those wheels ride and what tubeless system would you upgrade them for in the case of bike #1?

My main question/concern is about the groupset. I've tried both but couldn't really tell which one I prefer (it was only a test ride - however, the guy I met at Canyon suggested eTap was the best groupset currently available and said he would go for that one). I've also heard about eTap v1 FD issues and how Di2 is reliable and easily fixable given the large number of retailers. But how do those groupset work specifically on Ultimate frames?

Thanks a lot for your precious help!

wintershade
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

by wintershade

I guess it really comes down to whether you like Di2 or eTap better. There will be adherents to both camps on this forum. You should send more time riding both to decide. Personally, if it were me, I wouldn’t want a v1 eTap bike now that there is AXS. It’s no longer the “latest and greatest.”

If you want to go tubeless, that’s another reason to go with the Di2 bike, assuming you’re happy with the Mavic wheels. It’s a PITA to sell the stock sell wheels, having done this myself a number of times. You never get as much for them as you’d hope.

Given that sounds like you don’t have a preference for SRAM vs Shimano and do have a preference for tubeless vs non-tubeless-ready wheels, the Shimano bike is the ticket as it’s ready to roll right out of the box.

by Weenie


captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

Very helpful - thanks a lot.

You wouldn't want the v1 eTap only because of AXS or also because of its inherent issues? If it's just because of AXS then this wouldn't really apply to my situation since it don't really mind if I don't have the "latest and greatest" (also I cannot afford a Ultimate with AXS...).

Also if it can help other people to provide their input for the eTap vs Di2 question, this bike will travel with me quite a lot (US <=> Europe). Is one of the groupset more resistant to travel?

What wheels are the most adapted for tubeless usage at the moment? I've heard good opinions on Mavic but is there anything better out there? That would be a good reason to get bike #1 and to upgrade the wheels.

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

I traveled with Di2 and eTAP bikes, eTAP is easier but it's quite simple to disconnect the Di2 battery and make sure nothing can rub/cut a wire during travel so I would say it's a non-issue.

The Di2 bike has the better wheels, they're UST already but also, the Cosmic SL are quite lighter than the non-SL Cosmic) so unless you prefer eTAP, I think the Di2 bike is better out of the box.

Personally I prefer eTAP just for the levers and their shifting, more intuitive, better paddle feel and feedback, easier to shift with full fingered gloves. eTAP is trickier to setup compared to Di2 but that's something that's done only once when you install, and it should be done properly by Canyon before you get the bike (hopefully?), once set correctly, I think both groups are working very well, reliably and trouble free. With that said, Di2 is smooth, flawless, reliable, I wouldn't be unhappy with it. I think I much prefer eTAP bceause I have a bike with each so I can compare often but if I only had the Di2 bike, I'd be happy with it. It's not much of an issue to me but Di2 can go for a loooong time between battery charges, more than eTAP so something to maybe consider if you're the kind of person to forget about these things. But, eTAP can connect to Garmins and other computers out of the box so you can add the battery level to be shown on your computer to let you know when batteries are running low.

hannawald
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

Take di2 bike because of the wheelset. Etap or dura di2, both are great, you can take either and will be happy.. so make a choice based on other things - wheelset, colour...

Ultimate cf slx disc is a great bike, i liked it more than endurace, seemed to me that it accelerated better.

captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

@Dan Gerous: thanks a lot! Correct me if I'm wrong but Di2 also allows to show some info on a Garmin device?

Now to be 100% accurate, both bikes are in my budget but the eTap one comes at €4500 whereas the Di2 one is slightly below €6000. The eTap is particularly discounted as it has a few scratches (that's a Canyon outlet bike...). Would your position be the same given this price difference? I think I'm considering this option with a wheelset upgrade thanks to the saved money...but it might be a mistake - what tubeless-ready wheelset would you get in this price range?

I realize both options are very similar but it's always interesting to read what other (exprienced) people would do :-)

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Dan Gerous
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by Dan Gerous

captainolek wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:04 pm
@Dan Gerous: thanks a lot! Correct me if I'm wrong but Di2 also allows to show some info on a Garmin device?

Now to be 100% accurate, both bikes are in my budget but the eTap one comes at €4500 whereas the Di2 one is slightly below €6000. The eTap is particularly discounted as it has a few scratches (that's a Canyon outlet bike...). Would your position be the same given this price difference? I think I'm considering this option with a wheelset upgrade thanks to the saved money...but it might be a mistake - what tubeless-ready wheelset would you get in this price range?

I realize both options are very similar but it's always interesting to read what other (exprienced) people would do :-)
Di2 can also show gears and battery levels but you have to buy the wireless unit seperately (and an additional short wire) and add that somewhere into the wiring, without that, Di2 has no way to connect to anything wirelessly.

I'm in Canada so I'm not sure about wheelset prices... but over here I bought Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL UST and Enve 3.4 tubeless wheelsets, and both were less than €1500 (although Enve products might be more expensive in Europe), both bought new, genuine, from reputable shops so you could get the same wheelset as the Di2 bike or something else and come in under the price of the Di2 bike and that's before selling the old wheels. As mentionned, it's hard to sell wheels at high prices, especially non tubeless wheels.

Are you looking into these bikes with disc brakes or rim brakes by the way? EDIT: discs, you mentionned it.

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TonyM
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by TonyM

Di2 if you like customizing your shifting etc...!
You can go classic, semi synchro, full synchro, set which cog to switch the chainring, assign the shift buttons for the function you want, use the top button on the shifter for navigating on your Garmin,...etc...

captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

Dan Gerous wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:19 pm
Di2 can also show gears and battery levels but you have to buy the wireless unit seperately (and an additional short wire) and add that somewhere into the wiring, without that, Di2 has no way to connect to anything wirelessly.

I'm in Canada so I'm not sure about wheelset prices... but over here I bought Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL UST and Enve 3.4 tubeless wheelsets, and both were less than €1500 (although Enve products might be more expensive in Europe), both bought new, genuine, from reputable shops so you could get the same wheelset as the Di2 bike or something else and come in under the price of the Di2 bike and that's before selling the old wheels. As mentionned, it's hard to sell wheels at high prices, especially non tubeless wheels.

Are you looking into these bikes with disc brakes or rim brakes by the way? EDIT: discs, you mentionned it.
Disc brakes indeed - well tbh I've always had rim brakes and they're more than fine. But I feel like getting disc brakes will make things easier in the future for compatibility as the industry seems to be leaning towards this system (and therefore selling a disc-brakes bike might be easier too).

How would you rate the Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL UST? If I go with the eTap bike I think that's the tubeless-ready wheelset upgrade I would make... Also considering DT Swiss SPline PRC 1400 Disc 65mm as I'm finding nice second-hand opportunities in the budget.

Will probably need to sleep on this and choose tomorrow morning.

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Dan Gerous
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

captainolek wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:32 pm
How would you rate the Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL UST? If I go with the eTap bike I think that's the tubeless-ready wheelset upgrade I would make... Also considering DT Swiss SPline PRC 1400 Disc 65mm as I'm finding nice second-hand opportunities in the budget.
They're quite good. Stiff (to me), reliable and trouble free, they stay true without care, hubs spin very well, Mavic's weak point before was their old freehub design but the new ones called ID360 or something is much better, no more big yellow bushing and fragile pawls that would need frequent servicing and that could wear out quickly, now it's basically a copy/imitation of DT Swiss excellent ratchet drive.

Personally I went back to tubes but as far as road tubeless goes, Mavic's UST tires and wheel combo are probably the simplest and easiest to use. Tires are mounted and taken off by hand easily, they clip to the rims and seal up quickly with any floor pump (maybe even with some of the more powerful hand pumps). They are not the lightest wheels (in my experience, Mavic wheels are always heavier than claimed, sometimes by a lot) and I'm no fan of the carbon weave look but that's purely a matter of cosmetic taste. Mine are the rim brake model so the 'okay' braking doesn't concern you.

The Mavic UST tires are... I would say okay. Performance wise, they are by far the best tires Mavic have had and I would rate them close to my favorite tires, grip is good and they have an excellent rolling resistence apparently. They lose a few points as they're not the toughest or most durable tires though. They probably don't melt as fast as Shwalbe Pro Ones but, as past Mavic tires, the rubber seems to slice easily. In my case, slices have always been on the surface and didn't really matter and I have never punctured with them (or I did and sealant did it's job without me even noticing) but I have a friend who had two different slices in a week, long and deep enough that sealant wouldn't work. Could be just bad luck or maybe he didn't have the freshest sealant left in there... There might be better sealant than the Mavic stuff, in my experience it dries up quite fast so maybe my friend thought he had flat protection but that the sealant had already dried too much. Unlike past Mavic tires most people opted to swap from the start for something better, these are good enough to ride them until they wear out, then maybe look at something else, there are more and more tubeless options now.

Personally I prefer the Enve wheels, quite lighter, no old school carbon weave but they might be harder to find at a comparable price to the Mavics... But the Mavics are still very good wheels.

There are probably a bunch of other wheelset options to consider (others might chime in) but I have more experience with Enve and Mavics in recent years. You could also be looking at having a custom wheelset built with your favorite hubs and rims, usually can be a good value if you're not in a rush to get it ready to roll immediatly...

captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

Thanks a lot @Dan Gerous - much appreciated. Last question: which tubeless tyres would you recommend based on your experience? (both to go with the Mavic UST system - as I guess it's certainly possible to use non-Mavic tyres with their tubeless-ready rims - and with other wheels).

I just bought the eTap one and will now focus on upgrading the wheels. So excited to get the bike and start riding it.

Thanks a lot guys for your help :-)

captainolek
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

by captainolek

Hi guys,

Following-up on my new Canyon purchase...as mentioned above, I would like to ride 28mm tyres and was also thinking of going tubeless (if with Mavic UST, otherwise I'm also happy to keep tubes). I'm therefore considering the below options. Could you please help me to determine what's the best value for money (the amount in brackets corresponds to the extra money I'd have to spend after selling my wheels):

- Mavic Ksyrium Pro UST (+280€, new)
- DT Swiss PRC 1400 Spline 65 (+600€, second-hand)
- Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon UST (+700€, new)

If going with DT Swiss, would you recommend to go tubeless? If so, which tyres would you choose?

Or would you simply recommend to keep my current non-tubeless-ready wheels?

Thanks a lot for your help :-)

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Dan Gerous
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

Wheelsets, there is no right or wrong, three good choices, but very different ones. What are you looking for? What terrain do you typically ride? Big mountains? Flatter roads? Short hills and a bit of everything? Taller rims are typically heavier than lower ones but will be faster through the air, more suited to flatter terrain.. But in your three choices, weights look to be in the same range so I wouldn't say one is a better choice for climbing than the others, but the taller aero rim of the DT should be faster the faster you go, followed by the Cosmics and the Ksyrium much slower. But Ksyriums are cheaper and for tubeless use, they all work but it's easier with Mavic UST rims with Mavic UST tires. But unless you go with the Mavic with the 'SL' designation, it's not much of an upgrade over the stock wheels that comes with the bike IMO, weight is similar. It comes down to how much you really want to go tubeless.

You'll get opposite opinions about road tubeless, some swear by it, others don't see the point, there are probably a thousand threads on that I guess. My personal take is it's worth the trouble if you puncture quite often or if you like very low pressures, if you don't I'd stick with tubes. Tubes keep air longer (with butyl tubes), don't require sealant top off every month or so (depends of your climate and what sealant you use but they do dry out over time), less messy to change tires...

In theory, tubeless tires roll easier so faster at the same wattage but that's only true at the same pressures. In reality, you wont run tubeless road tires at the same pressures as tubed tires, you need to run much lower pressures so they feel good, and typically if you compare optimal pressure for tubeless vs optimal pressure with tubes, tubeless will roll slower mostly because tubeless tires have thicker and stiffer casings than good non tubed tires with much more supple casings. This is subjective as what feels good can be different for everyone. If someone gives more importance to pure speed, grip or comfort or if you just don't like the more dead, 'vague', isolated from the road feel of low pressure versus feeling a bit more connected with the road... it's kind of like bar tape, some prefer thick and cushioned, others thin and direct... I personaly tried tubeless for a season, found more cons than pros, went back to tubes. I think tubeless makes a lot of sense for mountain bikes where you want ridiculously low pressure so tires can deform and grip wet rocks, roots, absorb shocks... To a point they can make sense for gravel bikes for similar reasons and because on irregular surfaces like gravel, softer becomes faster, but on the road where I can already set the pressure as low as I want and still not be concerned by pinch flats, I don't see much point with tubeless, I'm more a thin bar tape with no gloves kind of guy though and with tubes, I only flat once or twice per year.

by Weenie


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Noctiluxx
Posts: 810
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by Noctiluxx

Option #2. This is not complicated. Better wheels, better drivetrain.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2019 Giant Revolt Advanced 0

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