Pinarello announcement may 1

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
fxx
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx


kgt wrote:High quality is high quality, and is related to materials, design, manufacturing etc.

There are cotton t-shirts that cost 200 euros just because their tag is famous and a status symbol. It does not mean that they have to cost as much the moment that their production cost is no more than 2 euros.
The same with frames. I don't want to support - by giving them my money - brands with overpriced, outsourced in China, medium to low quality products just because these brands prefer to spend their money on marketing and sponsorships and not on proper wages and high quality manufacturing.

And this myth of "extensive r&d and testing" in bike industry is overemphasized. We are talking about bikes, not F35 fighters. A couple of good engineers can do all the r&d and testing a company needs. It is interesting to read what hambini (yes, the aerodynamicist who works for Airbus) notes about the 'famous' engineers of the big bike industries. They are nothing special.
I agree with you, all the money spent on sponsorship, marketing and other halabaloo including so called "R&D", is nothing to do with improving the quality of the products but only to enhance the brand to make even more profits.

I am not saying that they should not spend this money to sell their products, but quality speaks a thousand words and need not depend on marketing dollars to sell products.

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Leviathan
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by Leviathan

wheelsONfire wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 am
My interest around the frames is what's the costs involved? How do they come to a specific amount?
I simply don't buy that old worn ideal, the charge what people are willing to pay.
You might not buy the idea, but the market does. Road bikes have become Veblen goods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

by Weenie


fxx
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:10 pm

by fxx

ichobi wrote:You probably know that material cost is not the only cost you pay developing a bike. You have to factor in extensive r&d, testing, sponsorship. The number of people involved and the wage the company has to pay. Fixed cost, dealership maintenance so on and so forth. You learn almost nothing from the material cost alone. It does not justify anything nor tell you anything of value.

For example, the carbon fiber used in a frame of Cervelo R5 costs around 75-100usd. (source: a factory owner who built bike for Cervelo before). But why does it sell for thousands of dollars? To make profit of course. A good brand worth a lot of money and takes time to build. You don't get to be Cervelo overnight. It took them almost two decades to get here. They are clearly doing something right and people are willing to pay for them.


Value judgement is very individual. I find "everything is marketing" argument tiresome when the one who argues has not even ridden the bike in question themselves. An F12 is overpriced to many, but an insta purchase for many people too. Yesterday someone I knew just bought F12 to ride with flat pedals. Power and happiness to them. It's just not for me and many others.

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So what you are saying in a nutshell is that for every $7000 you spend buying a Pinarello, $6900 is spent on marketing so that the company can sell more products and make even more profits, make sense to me.

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ichobi
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

If you think I say that you clearly didn't get what I was saying. So no.

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

I would like to see the cost for material, tooling, labour and possibly waste costs.
Let's say, from material costs untill the products is ready.
Every brands dream to come to that point, "price is secondary".
A high tag might even suggest higher demand (it's like Gryphon audio)
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

MRM wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:25 am
As far as I'm aware the Dogma F8 and Dogma F10 were made out of Torayca 1100 "Dreamcarbon". The Dogma F12 is made of 1k with only the F12 Xlight being made of 1100 "Dreamcarbon". So, for the 5200 you get a carbon downgrade and have to pay 6200 for the best carbon layup?! Seems like quite a poor move by Pinarello all things considered.
I think a potential buyer can buy the F12 and still "dream on" (isn't that what they mean?)

FRAME
Carbon Torayca T1100 1K Dream Carbon with Nanoalloy Technology

http://www.pinarello.com/en/bikes-2020/road/dogma-f12/
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

MMW
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:23 pm

by MMW

F14, now with the highest grade “dreamcarbon”, making it lighter, stiffer and more comfortable.


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survivor
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:08 pm

by survivor

I thought majority of the X-Light version 100g weight saving is coming from paint, where the X-Light version uses matt black paint. However, they just listed the 472 UK Champion colorway (Ben Swift's bike) for their F12 X-Light fleet.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/wo ... 2-x-light/

White usually is the heaviest paint of all. I am really curious to know the weight of this UK Champion colorway F12 X-Light vs the standard F12. F12 X-Light is a whooping $2K extra from the standard F12 and the UK Champion colorway is a $1K extra special order, which put this frame at a staggering $9,500 price tag. If there is no weight advantage then it is really a super glorify paint job for $3K extra.

fogman
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 pm

by fogman

That’s not even a very creative paint job, IMO. A couple of diagonal red and blue stripes, blah.


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It's all downhill from here, except for the uphills.

Broady
Posts: 382
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:02 pm

by Broady

fogman wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:05 am
That’s not even a very creative paint job, IMO. A couple of diagonal red and blue stripes, blah.


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Especially shite when compared to Connors last year! - https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/prod ... ain-392465

bespoke
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:58 pm

by bespoke

You would be insane to spend $1k for a paint job as bland as that....
Warning - Inherently biased:
www.bespokecycling.com

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Noctiluxx
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

I'd pay $1000 NOT to have that paint on my bike.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2019 Giant Revolt Advanced 0

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2949
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
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by wheelsONfire

For me Pinarello kind of fell on it's nose since GCN got bikes for free.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

3Pio
Posts: 1257
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Noctiluxx wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:30 pm
I'd pay $1000 NOT to have that paint on my bike.
I'd pay $1000 not to have to ride such a lame bike as Pinarello is today :)

(own one Pinarello FP3, definetely will sell it , i really cant stand what Pinarello become today)

by Weenie


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Leviathan
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by Leviathan

Noctiluxx wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:30 pm
I'd pay $1000 NOT to have that paint on my bike.
I was having a conversation with my 12 year old daughter today, about always doing her best on all her projects.

No need, she can simply become a Pinarello Designer.
That UK Nat Champs paint job literally looks like it took 2 minutes for the intern to come up with Friday PM when everyone else is down the pub.

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