Pinarello announcement may 1

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
hannawald
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by hannawald

I thought I was crazy when I bought my Bianchi framesetbut now it seems like a bargain:)

guyc
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by guyc

For that sort of money you're deep into the like of Argonaut etc - I know where my cash would go but then I'm not a racer after absolute speed.

by Weenie


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kgt
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by kgt

fxx wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:44 am
kgt wrote:Of course you have.
Yeah like what? Almost all CF bikes are MIC and all are stratospherically high priced.

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Almost all, but not all. There are still companies who produce carbon frames 100% in Italy, France, the US etc.

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Kayrehn
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by Kayrehn

guyc wrote:For that sort of money you're deep into the like of Argonaut etc - I know where my cash would go but then I'm not a racer after absolute speed.
I'm not into/don't like to see MIC-stuff-bashing but this is true indeed. Crazy cash for meagre weight savings

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

My interest around the frames is what's the costs involved? How do they come to a specific amount?
I simply don't buy that old worn ideal, the charge what people are willing to pay.
Pinarello is still mass produced. I also wonder what factories in EU could produce F8, F10 and F12 in all versions.
Be it standard rim or disc brake. X-light or standard. Most interesting is to bounce back to Lightweight, honest enough to say their frameset had been
around 12000 Euro if they made it. Swedish brand Rolos framesets cost close to 8000 Euro.
3T Rigida Ltd fork. The frame is made in Germany. Don't know who, but i would guess Bike Ahead.

I wonder how much (example) Cervelo pay for a R5 and S5 frameset, Specialized for Tarmac and Venge.
In comparison to what Pinarello pay for F10, F12 and those in X-light version.
Not sure Pinarello is more advanced than any of the other two,.. we may add the new Factor VAM to the mix.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

fxx
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by fxx

kgt wrote:
fxx wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:44 am
kgt wrote:Of course you have.
Yeah like what? Almost all CF bikes are MIC and all are stratospherically high priced.

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Almost all, but not all. There are still companies who produce carbon frames 100% in Italy, France, the US etc.
Sure if you are buy an outlier brand but definitely not the big boys.

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SashaJoseph
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Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:38 pm

by SashaJoseph

Let's not forget that Pinarello is part of the LVMH luxury goods group. Those goods are not known for their good price/quality ratio but they serve an additional function: to show to the world that their owners can afford them. I believe that the same applies to the Pinarello F12...

Another consideration: annual production of the F10 is roughly 10000 units (35000 for all Pinarello models). This is a fraction of the likes of Specialized, Trek or Canyon. But their marketing costs (team Ineos) are probably similar; hence a higher than average price.

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kgt
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by kgt

fxx wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:50 am
kgt wrote:
fxx wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:44 am
kgt wrote:Of course you have.
Yeah like what? Almost all CF bikes are MIC and all are stratospherically high priced.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Almost all, but not all. There are still companies who produce carbon frames 100% in Italy, France, the US etc.
Sure if you are buy an outlier brand but definitely not the big boys.
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Choosing not to buy from "the big boys" is a good thing IMHO.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

SashaJoseph wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:30 pm
Let's not forget that Pinarello is part of the LVMH luxury goods group. Those goods are not known for their good price/quality ratio but they serve an additional function: to show to the world that their owners can afford them. I believe that the same applies to the Pinarello F12...

Another consideration: annual production of the F10 is roughly 10000 units (35000 for all Pinarello models). This is a fraction of the likes of Specialized, Trek or Canyon. But their marketing costs (team Ineos) are probably similar; hence a higher than average price.
Thanks for shedding some light on this!
Part from that, it seems most (atleast here) go for the top of the line Pinarello.
Even so, i don't fully see why they have so many models. It would seem it would be sufficent with F12 and one model below.
It would be interesting to try F12 head to head with a custom built frameset.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

XCProMD
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Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

fxx wrote:
kgt wrote:Of course you have.
Yeah like what? Almost all CF bikes are MIC and all are stratospherically high priced.

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Not all. And some are not made in Asia.

MRM
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Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:15 pm

by MRM

As far as I'm aware the Dogma F8 and Dogma F10 were made out of Torayca 1100 "Dreamcarbon". The Dogma F12 is made of 1k with only the F12 Xlight being made of 1100 "Dreamcarbon". So, for the 5200 you get a carbon downgrade and have to pay 6200 for the best carbon layup?! Seems like quite a poor move by Pinarello all things considered.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I wouldn’t really worry about whether a brand advertises its frames are made of Toray 1000 or 1100. Most of a frame is made of lower modulus carbon fiber fabric with low stress areas having the ultra-high modulus stuff...think a small band in the middle of a top tube or something like that. And of course let’s not forget that frames are roughly 50% resin (plastic) anyway.

MRM
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:15 pm

by MRM

Also true. :)

Bikeradar states it a little more precisely than cyclingweekly (page 10) too.

"Pinarello says it achieved this by the use of “Torayca T1100 UD Dream Carbon” (the standard bike gets “Toracya T1100 1k Dream Carbon”, apparently) but it doesn’t go into more detail about how these weight savings were achieved."

So, as always the consumer has no idea what this actually means (outside of 1k vs. unidirectional) and how it compares to Fact 12r or OCLV 700 etc,

ichobi
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by ichobi

You probably know that material cost is not the only cost you pay developing a bike. You have to factor in extensive r&d, testing, sponsorship. The number of people involved and the wage the company has to pay. Fixed cost, dealership maintenance so on and so forth. You learn almost nothing from the material cost alone. It does not justify anything nor tell you anything of value.

For example, the carbon fiber used in a frame of Cervelo R5 costs around 75-100usd. (source: a factory owner who built bike for Cervelo before). But why does it sell for thousands of dollars? To make profit of course. A good brand worth a lot of money and takes time to build. You don't get to be Cervelo overnight. It took them almost two decades to get here. They are clearly doing something right and people are willing to pay for them.


Value judgement is very individual. I find "everything is marketing" argument tiresome when the one who argues has not even ridden the bike in question themselves. An F12 is overpriced to many, but an insta purchase for many people too. Yesterday someone I knew just bought F12 to ride with flat pedals. Power and happiness to them. It's just not for me and many others.

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by Weenie


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kgt
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by kgt

High quality is high quality, and is related to materials, design, manufacturing etc.

There are cotton t-shirts that cost 200 euros just because their tag is famous and a status symbol. It does not mean that they have to cost as much the moment that their production cost is no more than 2 euros.
The same with frames. I don't want to support - by giving them my money - brands with overpriced, outsourced in China, medium to low quality products just because these brands prefer to spend their money on marketing and sponsorships and not on proper wages and high quality manufacturing.

And this myth of "extensive r&d and testing" in bike industry is overemphasized. We are talking about bikes, not F35 fighters. A couple of good engineers can do all the r&d and testing a company needs. It is interesting to read what hambini (yes, the aerodynamicist who works for Airbus) notes about the 'famous' engineers of the big bike industries. They are nothing special.

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