Pinarello announcement may 1

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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taodemon
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by taodemon

I like that they have a rim option.

by Weenie


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Stendhal
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by Stendhal

3Pio wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:00 pm
Stendhal wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:16 pm
3Pio wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am


Do you base that entierly on the visual aspects, or do you know something you care to share?
Based that on my Pinarello experience with previous models (Dogma F8 test ride which had similar marketing BS vs other bikes then, and Pinarello experience in some other things not willing to share) and whole Pinarello thing in last years is totaly different vs old real Pinarellos from the past.. Now is Produce cheap in China, paint in Italy (eventually) and sell for premium price.. In between put some fancy non functional shape (just to look special without any real function, but kind of design after few months look cheap so space for new even more funny shape) , and put how is 8W faster, and 40% stiffer....
This is silly. What incentive would Pinarello have to degrade the aero and stiffness performance of the bike, especially in a fiercely competitive market and with much at stake in achieving continued success at the pro level?

I agree the pricing is a factor but that too is subject to competitive discipline.

And as long as you are being so traditionalist, here’s another point. How often do posters on this board, and very very knowledgeable ones at that, decry pressfit bottom brackets and call for a return to threaded brackets? The answer may be “sooner or later, every long thread elicits that comment.” If that position is correct, where is the credit to Pinarello for (stubbornly) remaining with a threaded bracket?

No, im not traditionalist that much as u think.. Im just engineer, and u know when we study they teach us to use our brain, and a lot of math instead what marketing says to us... So somtimes some of us can think reasonable and not what marketing say..

Also i had test ride properly Dogma F8 then, and i have my conlclusions not just on rationale, but also testing (and also realizing things which i wont share on public forum)...


Seem that u believe that really there is Aero gain which will make u faster in frame designs like this.. Good for u.. Now just buy it, but hurry up.. Since cool factor in this kind of designs/products will credit just to first one it have (until new model come), and the ones who will buy it late, will be old fashioned (and in meanwhile some more Aero and stiffer design will apear.. Maybe from Specialized...) About Bottom Brackets, try to check Colnago solution and try to realize why even beeing Press Fit, is actually very good solution (something really good Engineered and even not traditional, i really like because of good design (and use it for 22000 km trouble free))....

I wont continue discussion with u, waiting for pictures on instagram when u buy it.....I promise i'll Kudos them (but put as much hashtags as possible like #shutuplegs #dogmaf12 #12speedrules #aeroistheking etc....)
Actually as reflected in my signature I already owned the F8 and F10, and then replaced the F10 with a Specialized Tarmac SL6 because it was cheaper (and had direct mount rim brakes and wide tire clearance, as the F12 now has). So perhaps you are onto something! :)

I respect engineers. From what I have read on this board, the F8 did quite well in aero testing, so it's not as if the weird frame angles and flourishes hurt. (For the record, I also came to appreciat the less jarring lines of the SLC aesthestically...so we're agreeing again in a sense.) If they do not help aero, that would hurt Pinrello. If they help aero, I can't bedgrudge Pinarello for marketing them.
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 (6.39 kg), Cervelo Aspero (7.87)
Retired: LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10 \ F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2, R3, R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Kayrehn wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:53 pm
That's probably because the knee is hiding the sight of the crook in the top tube. This isn't high art or classical music for goodness sake, it is just odd looking trying to be unique.

If people have memory, they should recall pinarello ads in magazines stating how many percent improvements to bike qualities those wavy fork and seat stays contribute to the Dogma. Then they throw all that out with the F8 and F10. And now it's back. People must be especially susceptible to marketing spiel if they believe any sentence of what Pinarello says.

Just because you don't understand why they implemented the kink doesn't make it purely ornamental. I'm sure Pinarello would prefer not to have that "broken" line from a purely aesthetic PoV since it's clearly divisive.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not a coincidence the kink ends up around your knee bend. Pinarello likely designed the top tube to be nearly horizontal toward the front of the main triangle where airflow past the head tube is still attached/controllable. Add gyrating knees into the equation and suddenly there's vortices/turbulence everywhere and airflow is a secondary concern to aspects like weight, vertical compliance and lateral frame stiffness. Reducing the size of the main triangle does all that.

KarlC
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Location: San Diego Ca USA

by KarlC

If you like reading about Pinarello and how they where designed, built, ride and stiff bikes this is a long thread on the F8, F10, F10 X and a few other bikes...... (I think there are links to the F8 and F10 white papers in there somewhere if you want even more to read)

Lionel's Thread: Is my F10 too stiff ?

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f ... 50213.html

I thought Craigs input was interesting, he looks to have had some inside knowledge .......

Lionel' sThread: Is my F10 too stiff ?
jerk;917386 wrote:it's not as nice a bike. the f8s rode better than the f10s.
jerk;918024 wrote:here is my take and what i emailed Lionel:

Hi Lionel:

I'll chime in- I've just been really busy. The long and short of it is that a lot of folks prefer the F10 to the F8- because it is more of a "regular" bike. It's a bit lighter but isn't as stiff torsionally or as the F8. I think what you are feeling regarding an increase in stiffness is actually the opposite. If you wiggle the handlebars while straddling the bike- the F10 has noticeably more flex along the top tube.

I've got a couple of clients who upgraded from the F8 to the F10 and most find the F10 more comfortable and a better bike for long rides. Honestly- the F10 X is more like an F8- the frame is built under tension and the carbon is pulled taut and that give the thing that kind of ride quality where it feels like the bike wants to spring and pounce while still being incredibly solid.

The F10 to me- certainly isn't as dyanmic and quick feeling as the F8. It's a more planted bike and more traditional- I think this is because they're using the best technology regarding the carbon lay-up with the X series bikes.

Talk soon!

Craig


The F8 was probably one of the most costly development projects in procycling history that didn't involve blood doping and sketchy doctors. Jaguar funded a lot of it and the whole thing was based upon trying to make the bike behave consistently regardless of drag conditions. The findings showed that attacking out of a small group, taking a turn at the front of a peloton, even descending solo or making short sudden accelerations when riding with no draft on a mountain- created very specific turbulences which affected the bike in different ways. All the weird shaping was done to counteract that- basically to try to make the bike feel the same regardless of turbulence while still maintaining a low drag silohouette. Ironically- a small tubed round frame actually does this the best- but they have a lot more drag than a modern aero frame.

Since the Think2 Dogma- Pinarellos have built their top of the line frames under tension. This is why despite indentical geometry- the Dogma rides so much different than the lower end models. The bike frame is taut- which has historically allowed Pinarello to build a very light frame that feels like a heavier more planted bike. I'm not 100% sure- because I'm only privy to the development data up the the F8- but the new F10 doesn't look or ride like a bike frame that is built in this way. On the other hand, the F10 X-Light does. I wonder if Pinarello is simply using the higher modulas lighter carbon with the F10 but is saving the fancy build process stuff for the X-Light. Anyway- I like the F8 better too- most regular consumers don't. The F10 is lighter and feels more comfortable.
Lionel;918029 wrote:Thank you for that, very useful information. I wish I had talked to you before buying the F10 and selling the F8 :)
jerk;918202 wrote:a lot of this tells me that we're doing something right here at Summer Cycles. no one should be buying $12,000 bikes without a knowing exactly what they're getting. we've got 30 bikes here in the shop exclusively so folks can try stuff before they ride. You might not be able to try an Aerotack with eTap in your size- but you'll certainly be able to try soemthing in your size with eTap and an Aerotack in your size built up with something nice.

this "i told you so" lesson could and should have been avoided by using all the resources available to you when you're really trying to buy something without compromise. of course it is fair to assume that an F10 would be "better" than an F8 and I dare say that for most folks it is.

i've got a client now who is interested in an Aerotack and quite frankly I do not have enough information to build them a bike. they've never ridden a bike that fits them properly- and the feedback i got during our phone interview and through our email conversations means i'm flying them out here to ride some bikes and get a fitting done.

other folks can simply communicate working positionals to me- tell me what they like and what they'd hope to improve on their current bike and we're off to the races. buying a custom bike should be a process that eliminates any compromises and delivers a sporting good to the ride that exceeds their expectations.

there's a healthy market for used Gaulzettis for example and people love those bikes I'm sure- but I don't. i think that unless they're significantly cheaper than a comparable Trek or Specialized or Pinarello- most folks are better off going into a good bike shop and trying out a bunch of bikes and picking one. when you're buying a Gaulzetti the value is almost wholly in the dialectical process between me and the athlete. what that process produces is a sporting good designed and built specifically for their requirements and desires.

with a stock bike like the f10- the best thing to do is to have one set up to your positionals and try the bike before you buy it. when you ride a giant bike like Lionel or a tiny one, that probably isn't possible- but then you do owe it yourself to use your resources to get as much information as possible about what to expect from the bike. as lionel mentioned above, he probably would have benefited from speaking with someone who had ridden both the F8 and the F10 or had spoken to many folks who had. when i was selling a lot of pinarellos- i'd constantly pester the guys at Gita to get their feedback on the characteristics of the new models as they came out. i wanted to know what the hell to expect from a Marvel versus an F4:13 before i decided to invest in floor bikes at the old shop.

i'm working on a 46cm Giro d'Italia edition F10 right now. the owner could not be happier with her F10- because it rides and fits like her old Paris but is just a bit more comfortable and good deal lighter. She was game to upgrade her Paris last year- but the F8 was just too much bike for her. It was simply too stiff and hard for her and her preferences and riding style- but the F10 is perfect.

The nice thing about the Aerotack project is that we have a proverbial magic wand. We can give the bike the taut rigidity some riders favor- or we can go the opposite way and add tenax/kevlar strategically in order to allow the frame to absorb road shock and vibration. If a client is looking for a climbing bike- we can sacrifice some torsional rigidity- keep the drivetrain reasonably stiff and snappy and get the thing down to the 800gram mark. All of this is before we mess with the frame geometry to insure the bike handles properly and that the athlete's positionals are translated in a confident well balanced bicycle.

Karvalo
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by Karvalo

Sorry, that 'carbon is pulled taut' thing sounds like utter bollocks. How is it possible to do that with carbon layed up in a mold? There's no inside knowledge there.

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kgt
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by kgt

I also wonder what does this mean...

LionelB
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by LionelB

I have not inside info of any sort except my own expensive F10 "experience" that led me back to an F8 (and an Aerotack too!)....

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Maybe they used baking soda when cooking the F8?
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
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tabl10s
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by tabl10s

Karvalo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 7:32 am
Sorry, that 'carbon is pulled taut' thing sounds like utter bollocks. How is it possible to do that with carbon layed up in a mold? There's no inside knowledge there.
Imagine that only when the fiber is weaved which has to be done regardless.
2016 Orbea Orca OMR: 15.0lbs/6.804kg...😐 | 2016 Rca: 11.07lbs/5.048kg...😭 | 2015 Pinarello F8: 13.04lbs/5.915kg...😩 | 2018 S-Works SL6: 12.04/5.625kg... 😥

Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

Applying carbon weave under tension would have to be automated with calibrated machinery. I've never seen this in the bicycle industry. Space and defense grade expensive.

survivor
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by survivor

What's the chances we will see a Pinarello Dogma F12 X-Light during TDF? :D

tabl10s
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by tabl10s

Bridgeman wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:24 pm
Applying carbon weave under tension would have to be automated with calibrated machinery. I've never seen this in the bicycle industry. Space and defense grade expensive.
Doesn't Time do this and wasn't it done with the BMC Impec?
2016 Orbea Orca OMR: 15.0lbs/6.804kg...😐 | 2016 Rca: 11.07lbs/5.048kg...😭 | 2015 Pinarello F8: 13.04lbs/5.915kg...😩 | 2018 S-Works SL6: 12.04/5.625kg... 😥

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kgt
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by kgt

You mean this?

Image

I am not sure what tension means in this case. Before the transfer of the resin in the mold the tubes are certainly not in tention.

Image

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

Dogma F12 X-Light and X-Light Disk popped up on UCI's approved bike list on 17th of May :D
Retired bikes: Cervelo S5 2015 / Felt AR FRD 2014 / Cannondale SS HM 2014 / Scott Addict SL 2014 / Scott Plasma Premium 2014 / Orbea Orca 2008 / Look 596 /

moyboy
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by moyboy

Nice, wonder if it's an additional ~60 gram savings and the same 80kg weight limit....

Oh and $2k premium.
mrlobber wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:34 am
Dogma F12 X-Light and X-Light Disk popped up on UCI's approved bike list on 17th of May :D
Last edited by moyboy on Tue May 21, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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