Pinarello announcement may 1

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Karvalo
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

3Pio wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:21 pm
Obviosly someone who have more money then taste.... Im Considering the Dogma F12 as IQ test.. If u buy one, u failed the test....
Maybe depends what you've seen. I thought the one in the leaked photo was horrible, then the official photos made it look decent, now I've had a good look over one in the flesh I honestly think it looks fantastic. Completely turned around my initial impression.

IchDien
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:23 am
Location: Veneto

by IchDien

Say what you like but it's great they're still offering rim brakes as an option on their top tier bike; completely puts it on my radar for next frameset.

How much would you say INEOS were responsible for that? I know they flat out refused to use disc brakes in general, no?

by Weenie


User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 2671
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

3Pio wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:21 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 am
Who's going to be the first on one?
Obviosly someone who have more money then taste.... Im Considering the Dogma F12 as IQ test.. If u buy one, u failed the test....
Do you base that entierly on the visual aspects, or do you know something you care to share?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

3Pio
Posts: 1155
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:21 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 am
Who's going to be the first on one?
Obviosly someone who have more money then taste.... Im Considering the Dogma F12 as IQ test.. If u buy one, u failed the test....
Do you base that entierly on the visual aspects, or do you know something you care to share?
Based that on my Pinarello experience with previous models (Dogma F8 test ride which had similar marketing BS vs other bikes then, and Pinarello experience in some other things not willing to share) and whole Pinarello thing in last years is totaly different vs old real Pinarellos from the past.. Now is Produce cheap in China, paint in Italy (eventually) and sell for premium price.. In between put some fancy non functional shape (just to look special without any real function, but kind of design after few months look cheap so space for new even more funny shape) , and put how is 8W faster, and 40% stiffer....

Karvalo
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

3Pio wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am
Based that on my Pinarello experience with previous models (Dogma F8 test ride which had similar marketing BS vs other bikes then, and Pinarello experience in some other things not willing to share) and whole Pinarello thing in last years is totaly different vs old real Pinarellos from the past.. Now is Produce cheap in China, paint in Italy (eventually) and sell for premium price.
The idea that there's ever been such a thing as a 'real' Pinarello is amusing. They've pretty much always used outside factories - now they use factories that are further away. Doesn't really have any bearing on whether they are good bikes.

MRM
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:15 pm

by MRM

Doesn't look bad at all when being ridden. Often good design requires repeated viewing and revisiting to be appreciated. Stuff you like immediately often feels old very quickly.

Image
Image

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Kayrehn
Posts: 1199
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 pm

by Kayrehn

That's probably because the knee is hiding the sight of the crook in the top tube. This isn't high art or classical music for goodness sake, it is just odd looking trying to be unique.

If people have memory, they should recall pinarello ads in magazines stating how many percent improvements to bike qualities those wavy fork and seat stays contribute to the Dogma. Then they throw all that out with the F8 and F10. And now it's back. People must be especially susceptible to marketing spiel if they believe any sentence of what Pinarello says.





muti
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am

by muti

People don't understand that rim brakes are in essence a disc brake with 622mm rotor...They don't even bother to use common sense,spin(lightly) a wheel and try to stop it near the hub and then spin it again and try to stop it near the rim.Or that tubuless tires in the automotive industry are not mounted by bare hand and are measured on three dimensions(not two).So,long live the "aerodynamic" humps and the crazy multicurved forks of the Pinarello!

Stendhal
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am

by Stendhal

3Pio wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:21 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 am
Who's going to be the first on one?
Obviosly someone who have more money then taste.... Im Considering the Dogma F12 as IQ test.. If u buy one, u failed the test....
Do you base that entierly on the visual aspects, or do you know something you care to share?
Based that on my Pinarello experience with previous models (Dogma F8 test ride which had similar marketing BS vs other bikes then, and Pinarello experience in some other things not willing to share) and whole Pinarello thing in last years is totaly different vs old real Pinarellos from the past.. Now is Produce cheap in China, paint in Italy (eventually) and sell for premium price.. In between put some fancy non functional shape (just to look special without any real function, but kind of design after few months look cheap so space for new even more funny shape) , and put how is 8W faster, and 40% stiffer....
This is silly. What incentive would Pinarello have to degrade the aero and stiffness performance of the bike, especially in a fiercely competitive market and with much at stake in achieving continued success at the pro level?

I agree the pricing is a factor but that too is subject to competitive discipline.

And as long as you are being so traditionalist, here’s another point. How often do posters on this board, and very very knowledgeable ones at that, decry pressfit bottom brackets and call for a return to threaded brackets? The answer may be “sooner or later, every long thread elicits that comment.” If that position is correct, where is the credit to Pinarello for (stubbornly) remaining with a threaded bracket?
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL6 (6.39 kg)
Retired: LOW// mki road, Pinarello Dogma F10 \ F8, Lapierre Pulsium FDJ, TIME Fluidity S, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2, R3, R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

Hexsense
Posts: 766
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

muti wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:32 pm
People don't understand that rim brakes are in essence a disc brake with 622mm rotor...
Almost, but what rim brake are made of solid piece of steel? Well, any rim have steel braking surface at all?
Hydraulic rim brake if they don't turn down the power will crush any hollow modern rims. Their pad will sand down any aluminum or carbon braking surface really fast. Also rims deflect a lot more than disc rotor on hard cornering so they can't set the calipers as close as the disc system. That limit amount of mechanical advantage of lever pull down that your lever pull can still cover the distance it need to move in to touch the rim. I can go on but that is out of topic.

The rest of your statement i kinda agree-ish, somewhat.

tabl10s
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:40 am

by tabl10s

Kayrehn wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 12:53 pm
That's probably because the knee is hiding the sight of the crook in the top tube. This isn't high art or classical music for goodness sake, it is just odd looking trying to be unique.

If people have memory, they should recall pinarello ads in magazines stating how many percent improvements to bike qualities those wavy fork and seat stays contribute to the Dogma. Then they throw all that out with the F8 and F10. And now it's back. People must be especially susceptible to marketing spiel if they believe any sentence of what Pinarello says.
If everything is pretty, there's bitching. If everything's ugly, there's bitching. If everything looks the same,.....
2016 Orbea Orca OMR:

15.0lbs/6.804kg.

2013 Wilier Zero.7:

13.02lbs/5.906kg.

2016 Rca:

11.07lbs/5.048kg.

2015 Pinarello F8:

13.04lbs/5.915kg

2018 S-Works SL6(shooting for 11lbs).

3Pio
Posts: 1155
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Stendhal wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 4:16 pm
3Pio wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:30 am
3Pio wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:21 pm


Obviosly someone who have more money then taste.... Im Considering the Dogma F12 as IQ test.. If u buy one, u failed the test....
Do you base that entierly on the visual aspects, or do you know something you care to share?
Based that on my Pinarello experience with previous models (Dogma F8 test ride which had similar marketing BS vs other bikes then, and Pinarello experience in some other things not willing to share) and whole Pinarello thing in last years is totaly different vs old real Pinarellos from the past.. Now is Produce cheap in China, paint in Italy (eventually) and sell for premium price.. In between put some fancy non functional shape (just to look special without any real function, but kind of design after few months look cheap so space for new even more funny shape) , and put how is 8W faster, and 40% stiffer....
This is silly. What incentive would Pinarello have to degrade the aero and stiffness performance of the bike, especially in a fiercely competitive market and with much at stake in achieving continued success at the pro level?

I agree the pricing is a factor but that too is subject to competitive discipline.

And as long as you are being so traditionalist, here’s another point. How often do posters on this board, and very very knowledgeable ones at that, decry pressfit bottom brackets and call for a return to threaded brackets? The answer may be “sooner or later, every long thread elicits that comment.” If that position is correct, where is the credit to Pinarello for (stubbornly) remaining with a threaded bracket?

No, im not traditionalist that much as u think.. Im just engineer, and u know when we study they teach us to use our brain, and a lot of math instead what marketing says to us... So somtimes some of us can think reasonable and not what marketing say..

Also i had test ride properly Dogma F8 then, and i have my conlclusions not just on rationale, but also testing (and also realizing things which i wont share on public forum)...


Seem that u believe that really there is Aero gain which will make u faster in frame designs like this.. Good for u.. Now just buy it, but hurry up.. Since cool factor in this kind of designs/products will credit just to first one it have (until new model come), and the ones who will buy it late, will be old fashioned (and in meanwhile some more Aero and stiffer design will apear.. Maybe from Specialized...) About Bottom Brackets, try to check Colnago solution and try to realize why even beeing Press Fit, is actually very good solution (something really good Engineered and even not traditional, i really like because of good design (and use it for 22000 km trouble free))....

I wont continue discussion with u, waiting for pictures on instagram when u buy it.....I promise i'll Kudos them (but put as much hashtags as possible like #shutuplegs #dogmaf12 #12speedrules #aeroistheking etc....)
Last edited by 3Pio on Mon May 06, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Karvalo
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

muti wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:32 pm
People don't understand that rim brakes are in essence a disc brake with 622mm rotor...
Because they're not.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 2671
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

"Design language" plays an important role for some brands, so they've kind of made themselves forced to keep it rolling. F10 was as i get it, essentially a "touch up" of F8.
Some claims that F10 is less harsh than F8.
If we look at Pinarellos back catalogue, we could all see that design play a big part. I don't doubt they also throw in some true (more or less) numbers along.
But i am in belief that a change in aesthetic appearance is done so potential clients move on to a new platform.
If F12 looked too much like the previous versions, this would boost second hand sale, not to mention people with money would perhaps not move over to new bike and perhaps and likely not, a new Pinarello.
It's obvious reading this thread, that most concerns here bounce back to how the design is, not what has actually happened to bike feel.

One thing i always have tried to have fact on, is how much input, suggestions design department get from the manufacturing technicians?
I seriously doubt that Pinarello and most other brands, do the full layup map themselves.

Pinarellos offical face out cost alot of money. Somewhere this must come from. It's easy math. I also think that some brands sell better if they maintain a higher price.
They've worked up such a stance towards the customers so high price is keeping this face alive aswell as the complete circus around them.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

by Weenie


hannawald
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

I can understand that someone says it is ugly design (though i like it) but why so much despect about its aero properties? It has been tested and is among the very best..
I have never ridden it, people say it is not very comfortable but it deserves respect for its aero..with hidden cables should be even better.

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