Any real world experience with Sram AXS?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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Gearjunkie
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by Gearjunkie

@ RussellS

Good post. Thanks :thumbup:

I'm not worried about the differences between 11 & 12 speed. I run 10 speed. 8)

My issue is with what you are calling "gear inch jumps".

My point is that everyone raves on about how AXS has the same gaps (or better) than 11 speed. Not true, and in some cases at least, it is significant.

Using your numbers, the AXS gear inch gap between the 10t (7.6 inches) and 11t (6.6 inches) the change is 1.3 inches (7.6 - 6.6 = 1.3).

Compare that to the equivalent 11 speed gear inch gap between the 11t (6.8 inches) and 12t (5.8inches) , so a 1 inch gap (6.8 - 5.8 = 1).

So AXS has a 30% BIGGER gap between it's top two cogs compared to 11 speeds' top two cogs. I think most people will notice a 30% bigger gap when on the rivet, hunting for the perfect gear.

All assuming I've got my logic right, which of course I may not have...

I really wanted to like AXS but can't really see any significant advantanges over 11S and in turn can't really see any advantages in 11S over 10S. In particular (this being WW in all), I was really hoping that AXS would bring the weight of wireless shifting down to the weight of mechanical. Nope.

So for me, 10S Red mechanical is still the WW king. :twisted: Lighter and faster shifting, no batteries, what's not to like? 8)

Oh, and while etap front shifting may not be great (I have etap HRD on my winter bike), 10S mechanical Red with yaw and standard chaingrings is sweeeet, despite what all the haters say.

jlok
Posts: 1024
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

so... any real world exp on the 12-11 vs 11-10? on paper yes the difference of the difference is 30%... how does it translate to real world riding exp?
Litespeed T1sl Disc / BMC TM02 < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Can someone corroborate wheelbuilder's report that eTap AXS FDs actually trim? If they trim, why do they still yaw?

Mirco
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:09 pm

by Mirco

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 7:06 am
Can someone corroborate wheelbuilder's report that eTap AXS FDs actually trim? If they trim, why do they still yaw?
There is no trim, just yaw and if you would like to use the small chainring with the 10 cog, it is prohibited by the software, just the 11 cog is possible.

Pinguin
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:28 pm

by Pinguin

Gearjunkie wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:13 am
@ RussellS

Good post. Thanks :thumbup:

I'm not worried about the differences between 11 & 12 speed. I run 10 speed. 8)

My issue is with what you are calling "gear inch jumps".

My point is that everyone raves on about how AXS has the same gaps (or better) than 11 speed. Not true, and in some cases at least, it is significant.

Using your numbers, the AXS gear inch gap between the 10t (7.6 inches) and 11t (6.6 inches) the change is 1.3 inches (7.6 - 6.6 = 1.3).

Compare that to the equivalent 11 speed gear inch gap between the 11t (6.8 inches) and 12t (5.8inches) , so a 1 inch gap (6.8 - 5.8 = 1).

So AXS has a 30% BIGGER gap between it's top two cogs compared to 11 speeds' top two cogs. I think most people will notice a 30% bigger gap when on the rivet, hunting for the perfect gear.

All assuming I've got my logic right, which of course I may not have...

I really wanted to like AXS but can't really see any significant advantanges over 11S and in turn can't really see any advantages in 11S over 10S. In particular (this being WW in all), I was really hoping that AXS would bring the weight of wireless shifting down to the weight of mechanical. Nope.

So for me, 10S Red mechanical is still the WW king. :twisted: Lighter and faster shifting, no batteries, what's not to like? 8)

Oh, and while etap front shifting may not be great (I have etap HRD on my winter bike), 10S mechanical Red with yaw and standard chaingrings is sweeeet, despite what all the haters say.
+1
I am also on 10S Red mechanic and think about upgrade(Front Shifting isnt best)
But what to read its not best choice to change to AXS
Better to choose 11 Etap(cheaper and Powermeter compatible)??

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:54 am

by bikesrdangerousmmk

Gearjunkie wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:13 am
@ RussellS

Good post. Thanks :thumbup:

I'm not worried about the differences between 11 & 12 speed. I run 10 speed. 8)

My issue is with what you are calling "gear inch jumps".

My point is that everyone raves on about how AXS has the same gaps (or better) than 11 speed. Not true, and in some cases at least, it is significant.

Using your numbers, the AXS gear inch gap between the 10t (7.6 inches) and 11t (6.6 inches) the change is 1.3 inches (7.6 - 6.6 = 1.3).

Compare that to the equivalent 11 speed gear inch gap between the 11t (6.8 inches) and 12t (5.8inches) , so a 1 inch gap (6.8 - 5.8 = 1).

So AXS has a 30% BIGGER gap between it's top two cogs compared to 11 speeds' top two cogs. I think most people will notice a 30% bigger gap when on the rivet, hunting for the perfect gear.

All assuming I've got my logic right, which of course I may not have...

I really wanted to like AXS but can't really see any significant advantanges over 11S and in turn can't really see any advantages in 11S over 10S. In particular (this being WW in all), I was really hoping that AXS would bring the weight of wireless shifting down to the weight of mechanical. Nope.

So for me, 10S Red mechanical is still the WW king. :twisted: Lighter and faster shifting, no batteries, what's not to like? 8)

Oh, and while etap front shifting may not be great (I have etap HRD on my winter bike), 10S mechanical Red with yaw and standard chaingrings is sweeeet, despite what all the haters say.
You’re holding the front chainring constant in your math. The difference in 53x12 to 11 and 48x11 to 10 wound up being 10% (that’s including my switch from 25mm actual tires to 31mm actual tires as well). That’s at the ultimate limit of tested human perception generally, and it has been a non issue for me in riding. I cannot notice it, and I have greatly enjoyed the gruppo.
Last edited by bikesrdangerousmmk on Wed May 01, 2019 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bikesrdangerousmmk
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by bikesrdangerousmmk

jlok wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:18 am
so... any real world exp on the 12-11 vs 11-10? on paper yes the difference of the difference is 30%... how does it translate to real world riding exp?
See my post above. It’s more like 8-11% difference when you compare actual systems. The 30% is incorrectly assuming you are pushing the same front chainring

crlincoln
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:42 am

by crlincoln

So I've just picked up a 3T Strada Due with the Force AXS, I'm running 48-35T/33-10T setup. So far I've only done about 70km across a couple of short rides, my previous bike is a BMC Roadmachine running Ultegra Mechanical Disc.

So far I'm really enjoying it, I'm finding the hoods really comfortable and enjoying the AXS setup, I need to try some different settings to see what works best for me, haven't gone up any really big hills so not really tested out the bottom end of the gearing where there is the larger jumps in ratio's.

Looking to try and do a big +150km ride this weekend to see how I enjoy both bike and setup.... but so far... I'm smiling!!!

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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

I knew I shouldn't have used the word trim. It does not trim like Di2 where it senses where you are on the cassette and moves the front derailleur in response inboard or outboard. It does the small to big overshift that 11spd users are familiar with in a different manner depending on where on the cassette you are shifting from, and the two-step downshift or "soft-drop" feature I do probably mistakenly refer to as trim when talking with customers. The other poster is correct that it prevents small small combo like Shimano.
To address Tobin in particular as I know he rides 11 spd........you can trust that there is no rub anywhere, no slow pick-up from inner to outer resulting in drops to the inside. The outer cage clearance to the crank is improved, and the front shifting in general is greatly improved.
Never cheer before you know who is winning

RussellS
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Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:31 am

by RussellS

Gearjunkie wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:13 am
My point is that everyone raves on about how AXS has the same gaps (or better) than 11 speed. Not true, and in some cases at least, it is significant.
Using your numbers, the AXS gear inch gap between the 10t (7.6 inches) and 11t (6.6 inches) the change is 1.3 inches (7.9 - 6.6 = 1.3).
Compare that to the equivalent 11 speed gear inch gap between the 11t (6.8 inches) and 12t (5.8inches) , so a 1 inch gap (6.8 - 5.8 = 1).

So AXS has a 30% BIGGER gap between it's top two cogs compared to 11 speeds' top two cogs. I think most people will notice a 30% bigger gap when on the rivet, hunting for the perfect gear.

I really wanted to like AXS but can't really see any significant advantanges over 11S and in turn can't really see any advantages in 11S over 10S.
Your 30% complaint is about the difference in gears between the HIGHEST gear and the NEXT HIGHEST gear. So the difference between the two biggest hardest gears on your bike. I suppose for Cavendish and whoever else is the top sprinter in the pro peloton today, this might matter. For every other person on the face of the earth, this is about as significant as the exact number of pubic hairs you have. And remember, you are talking about TENTHS of gear inches. Tenths of gear inches are really really tiny. Its about like saying you have water bottle bolts (plastic ones) that weigh 3 grams each instead of the heavy 4 gram bolts. Its 25% LESS!!!! Or 33% MORE!!!!

Yes AXS has a bigger gear inch jump between the highest and next highest gears. And one less big jump further down the cassette than 11 speed. 11 speed ended up with two "big" jumps in gears in the cassette. 12 speed I guess also has two big jumps. But since one of the big jumps is the first jump between high gear and next highest gear, I don't think its as important. So 12 speed has its other big jump further down the cassette. 11 speed has two of these big jumps further down the cassette. Where you ride a lot. Personally I don't spend too much time in my biggest and next biggest cogs. I'm in the middle cogs most of the time.

In exchange for this movement of the big jumps between cogs, 12 speed sort of reduces the jumps between every cog. All the shifts are a little smaller. I suppose this is good since it might allow you to pedal more smoothly when shifting. Lesser change in the gear inches when shifting. The overall range of high and low between 12 and 11 and 10 is nothing. You can get the same high and the same low with all of them. Its just how many and how small the jumps between all the gears is. I have numerous 9 and 10 speed bikes. There is no reason for me to change any of the bikes to 11 or 12 speed. But IF I was buying a NEW bike, I'd buy a 11 or 12 speed bike.

bikesrdangerousmmk
Posts: 112
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by bikesrdangerousmmk

Not 30%. Much less.

53t chainring, 12-11: ~9.04% gear inch jump

48t chainring, 11-10: ~10.09% gear inch jump
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Gearjunkie
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by Gearjunkie

@bikesrdangerousmnk: I'm not saying the gap itself is 30%, only the difference in the gap (between AXS and 11S) is 30%.

@everyone: It's true that I picked the biggest difference by picking the gap between the highest gears, but I was just trying to illustrate the point.

Not sure that it's true that the numbers are based on the same front ring. I was just using Russell's numbers.

I guess I just have a hang up about the smaller front / smaller rear gears on AXS. Can't see how it's a good idea, especially efficiency wise.

CallumRD1
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by CallumRD1

Gearjunkie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:35 am
@bikesrdangerousmnk: I'm not saying the gap itself is 30%, only the difference in the gap (between AXS and 11S) is 30%.

@everyone: It's true that I picked the biggest difference by picking the gap between the highest gears, but I was just trying to illustrate the point.

Not sure that it's true that the numbers are based on the same front ring. I was just using Russell's numbers.

I guess I just have a hang up about the smaller front / smaller rear gears on AXS. Can't see how it's a good idea, especially efficiency wise.
I have no idea where you came up with 30%. The difference between 11t and 10t is 10%, (11/10) while the difference between 12t and 11t is 9% (12/11). Therefore the difference in jump between the 12 speed cassette's 10-11 jump and the 11 speed cassette's 11-12 jump is only 11% (10/9). (And this is entirely independent of the front chainring size.)

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I just came across this article. Somewhat related to AXS. The smaller cogs and chainrings on the AXS will increase frictional losses. Six watts out of 250 watts is significant.
Very interesting.

https://www.velonews.com/2019/05/bikes- ... ins_493185
Velonews wrote: The frictional losses of the system were highest for each chainring when the chain ran on the smallest cog. This is also where the difference in frictional losses were greatest between the two drivetrains: at the highest gear ratio (4.80) the 48 X 10-tooth combination consumed six watts more than the 53 X 11-tooth combination.

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bikesrdangerousmmk
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by bikesrdangerousmmk

CallumRD1 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:40 am
Gearjunkie wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:35 am
@bikesrdangerousmnk: I'm not saying the gap itself is 30%, only the difference in the gap (between AXS and 11S) is 30%.

@everyone: It's true that I picked the biggest difference by picking the gap between the highest gears, but I was just trying to illustrate the point.

Not sure that it's true that the numbers are based on the same front ring. I was just using Russell's numbers.

I guess I just have a hang up about the smaller front / smaller rear gears on AXS. Can't see how it's a good idea, especially efficiency wise.
I have no idea where you came up with 30%. The difference between 11t and 10t is 10%, (11/10) while the difference between 12t and 11t is 9% (12/11). Therefore the difference in jump between the 12 speed cassette's 10-11 jump and the 11 speed cassette's 11-12 jump is only 11% (10/9). (And this is entirely independent of the front chainring size.)
Indeed. My point was not phrased appropriately, but most people i hear bemoaning the 11 to 10 tooth jump are thinking about it in the context of how they previously felt pushing a 52 or 53. Obviously it’s easier to turn a 12t rear cog with a 48 than with a 52/3t front ring.

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