Scott Bikes Rim Brake Future

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
iamraymond
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:59 am

by iamraymond

mattr wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:27 pm
iamraymond wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:13 am
I used to run my pads very close to the rim so I was used to very little lever throw. >snip< I've even adjusted my rim brake bikes so that the lever throw is the same as my disc bike.
Essentially, you had rims brakes set up badly enough so that you'd have had (effecively) modulation free rim brakes.........
Essentially, yes.

dricked
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:57 pm

by dricked

Sort of, by bringing the pads closer the free play of the lever has been essentially removed or greatly reduced. It still takes the same amount of pressure to stop or slow the bike down and the modulation won’t change because you haven’t changed the coefficient of friction between the brake pad and rim.

by Weenie


mattr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

That'd only be true if you had a perfectly linear relationship between lever movement and pad movement. Which you don't.
The industry has spent decades trying to optimse leverage ratios between lever and caliper. (With a nod to ergonomics.)
Pads hit the rim too early in the lever stroke you get wooden feeling brakes with no modulation at all, too late, your lever bottoms out...... Get them to hit quarter or so of the way through the lever stroke and you hit the sweet spot. Depending on rim width, frame geo, pad wear/type, cable type/installation and so on.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 2963
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

The thing it seems it come down to is, persuade people to only want one option to avoid expenses for the industry.
Now it's disc, so we should only want disc brake bikes. No wonder pro teams are told to ride disc brakes.
It's part of the propaganda (brainwash). Same goes for electronic VS mechanical.
It's all B.S. Best is if those who want disc can use that while others remain on rim brakes.
Ofcourse, same goes for shifting!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

youjettisonme
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 am

by youjettisonme

Lewn777 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:44 pm
youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 am
After using mechanical and hydraulic disk brakes on motos, MTBs and CX bikes for over 20 years I hate the idea of disk brakes on a road bike. Marketing department driven marginal gains in the wet only.

Direct mount brakes, wheel rim surfaces adn rim brake blocks are still evolving.

I've got Shimano Dua-Ace on DT Swiss alloy rims, disk brakes are not better in the dry, you're just adding weight and complication for absolutely no reason, couldn't ask for better power or modulation. It's the 26inch-to 27.5inch MTB wheel American/Taiwanese manufacturer driven money grab 2.0. Most people shouting loudly for disk brakes are simply suffering from post purchase rationalization or are seeing psychological benefits. Why you'd seek add weight and complication to your bike for such marginal gains is beyond me.

Sorry to be so aggressive in my opinion, but I'm sick of this.
I love all the people who claim to be "sick of it". Literally no one is forcing you to buy it. No one if forcing you to buy anything at all. All of these retro grouch traditionalists, just turned off that someone else could like something they don't. Makes zero sense.

That said, your take on performance is also hot garbage. As someone who rode for 6 years then raced for another 8 years, I've now been on disc for two years. I will never go back. If you live in a hilly and/or mountainous region, it's a HUGE advantage, period. The modulation is sooo much better than rim brakes, and you can slow and stop on steep descents using one finger. Also huge.

Last year was the first year I did the Eastern Sierras for a week, and being able to stop so easily on a 25 mile descent through switchbacks is a big deal as well. When I come back from a long ride, my hands/fingers/wrists, etc. aren't sore like they were prior.

I have nothing against calipers, and similarly, you need not have anything against a product you don't care about. Why try to convince strangers otherwise? To what ends?
Oh my god, what a load of fanboy post-purchase rationalizations and psychological codswallop. 'I just bought it so it must be better' rationale. I just got back from a 320km ride with almost 5000 meters of climbing and desecending. There's no more soreness in my limbs/hands etc than I would have had on disk brakes, faster down the decents than everyone else. One of the guys on a Trek Domane had a loosening centerlock and rubbing pads, no thanks.

Yes I do care about a product I don't like because it changes the whole industry. How soon before I go to a Giant/Trek/Specialized dealership and can't buy a rim brake bike? Or any bike under 7kg for less than $10000? A year or two? Then when the industry gets disk brakes through you'll see all sorts of new disk brakes with different bolt patterns, rotor sizes, 1x, cranks with different Q-factors, 13 speed and 14 speed cassette groupos with only disk brake compaitibility. Peoples new fangled bikes will look dated in a year or two, just like MTBs do now.

All slimplicity and lightness put to the sword for 'newness' 'techyness' 'percieved betterness' with barely a shred of scientific evidence to back it up.
'Better modulation' - impossible to prove, there are hundreds of rim and brake combinations and tens of disk brake combos. If your older carbon rim and single pivot system wasn't that good, then try a modern ceramic coated alloy rim and direct mount calipers and tell me they aren't significantly better.
'one finger braking' - Road bike levers are designed for two fingers so I use two fingers. I used one finger braking in MTB becuase the levers are designed for one finger. I used three fingers on motos because the levers are designed that way too, even though those brakes are far more powerful than bicycle brakes.

Why try to convice strangers against disk brakes? Because they're not actually better in the dry, will make your bike significantly heavier and far more complex to work on. I have all the tools, and knowledge and don't want disk brakes so a disk brake noob is opening a pandoras box of annoyance and/or expense for no good reason - it's not their fault they're just falling for the marketing, they don't have any actal expirence. On these forums there are many reports of people abandoning disk brakes and going back to rims. It's just like tubeless for the road, if you are only getting a puntcture or two every 10,000kms it's a pointless headache going tubeless too. Just because something makes sense for MTB then somehow it makes sense for a road bike? How? I'm no road bike old man anti-everything new curmudgeon, I've been using and wrenching this tech since it was first introduced on MTBs over ten years ago.
I don't need to read this ranting because I've read it all before ad nauseum. You have very little experience with disc brakes on road, yet you try to convince strangers on the internet that they are terrible... and to no ends. A complete waste of your time. I may be a "fanboy", but you're the worst kind of retro grouch. I've been racing bikes since 2002 on freaking rim brakes. I understand their plus/minus implicitly, and so do the thousands I've raced with in hilly terrain. What an utterly stupid way to waste your time, just railing against the direction of the industry on message boards to strangers. Ride disc on road exclusively for a year AND THEN comment about something you will actually iknow something about at that point. You may as well be a straight dude explaining to gay people what it's like to be gay. Actually live the disc life for real and only then will your comments mean anything.

User avatar
Lewn777
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

youjettisonme wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:29 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:44 pm
youjettisonme wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:37 am
Lewn777 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 am
After using mechanical and hydraulic disk brakes on motos, MTBs and CX bikes for over 20 years I hate the idea of disk brakes on a road bike. Marketing department driven marginal gains in the wet only.

Direct mount brakes, wheel rim surfaces adn rim brake blocks are still evolving.

I've got Shimano Dua-Ace on DT Swiss alloy rims, disk brakes are not better in the dry, you're just adding weight and complication for absolutely no reason, couldn't ask for better power or modulation. It's the 26inch-to 27.5inch MTB wheel American/Taiwanese manufacturer driven money grab 2.0. Most people shouting loudly for disk brakes are simply suffering from post purchase rationalization or are seeing psychological benefits. Why you'd seek add weight and complication to your bike for such marginal gains is beyond me.

Sorry to be so aggressive in my opinion, but I'm sick of this.
I love all the people who claim to be "sick of it". Literally no one is forcing you to buy it. No one if forcing you to buy anything at all. All of these retro grouch traditionalists, just turned off that someone else could like something they don't. Makes zero sense.

That said, your take on performance is also hot garbage. As someone who rode for 6 years then raced for another 8 years, I've now been on disc for two years. I will never go back. If you live in a hilly and/or mountainous region, it's a HUGE advantage, period. The modulation is sooo much better than rim brakes, and you can slow and stop on steep descents using one finger. Also huge.

Last year was the first year I did the Eastern Sierras for a week, and being able to stop so easily on a 25 mile descent through switchbacks is a big deal as well. When I come back from a long ride, my hands/fingers/wrists, etc. aren't sore like they were prior.

I have nothing against calipers, and similarly, you need not have anything against a product you don't care about. Why try to convince strangers otherwise? To what ends?
Oh my god, what a load of fanboy post-purchase rationalizations and psychological codswallop. 'I just bought it so it must be better' rationale. I just got back from a 320km ride with almost 5000 meters of climbing and desecending. There's no more soreness in my limbs/hands etc than I would have had on disk brakes, faster down the decents than everyone else. One of the guys on a Trek Domane had a loosening centerlock and rubbing pads, no thanks.

Yes I do care about a product I don't like because it changes the whole industry. How soon before I go to a Giant/Trek/Specialized dealership and can't buy a rim brake bike? Or any bike under 7kg for less than $10000? A year or two? Then when the industry gets disk brakes through you'll see all sorts of new disk brakes with different bolt patterns, rotor sizes, 1x, cranks with different Q-factors, 13 speed and 14 speed cassette groupos with only disk brake compaitibility. Peoples new fangled bikes will look dated in a year or two, just like MTBs do now.

All slimplicity and lightness put to the sword for 'newness' 'techyness' 'percieved betterness' with barely a shred of scientific evidence to back it up.
'Better modulation' - impossible to prove, there are hundreds of rim and brake combinations and tens of disk brake combos. If your older carbon rim and single pivot system wasn't that good, then try a modern ceramic coated alloy rim and direct mount calipers and tell me they aren't significantly better.
'one finger braking' - Road bike levers are designed for two fingers so I use two fingers. I used one finger braking in MTB becuase the levers are designed for one finger. I used three fingers on motos because the levers are designed that way too, even though those brakes are far more powerful than bicycle brakes.

Why try to convice strangers against disk brakes? Because they're not actually better in the dry, will make your bike significantly heavier and far more complex to work on. I have all the tools, and knowledge and don't want disk brakes so a disk brake noob is opening a pandoras box of annoyance and/or expense for no good reason - it's not their fault they're just falling for the marketing, they don't have any actal expirence. On these forums there are many reports of people abandoning disk brakes and going back to rims. It's just like tubeless for the road, if you are only getting a puntcture or two every 10,000kms it's a pointless headache going tubeless too. Just because something makes sense for MTB then somehow it makes sense for a road bike? How? I'm no road bike old man anti-everything new curmudgeon, I've been using and wrenching this tech since it was first introduced on MTBs over ten years ago.
I don't need to read this ranting because I've read it all before ad nauseum. You have very little experience with disc brakes on road, yet you try to convince strangers on the internet that they are terrible... and to no ends. A complete waste of your time. I may be a "fanboy", but you're the worst kind of retro grouch. I've been racing bikes since 2002 on freaking rim brakes. I understand their plus/minus implicitly, and so do the thousands I've raced with in hilly terrain. What an utterly stupid way to waste your time, just railing against the direction of the industry on message boards to strangers. Ride disc on road exclusively for a year AND THEN comment about something you will actually iknow something about at that point. You may as well be a straight dude explaining to gay people what it's like to be gay. Actually live the disc life for real and only then will your comments mean anything.
I don't need to waste my time reading this. I've read this a thousand times before ad nauseum so I'll simply dismiss everything without even reading it. This is how you win an argument, total ignorance.

What an utterly stupid way to waste your time trying to explain to other people how good disk brakes are. You're just railing against simplicity and ease of and use being lighter. Lighter? On a web board call weight weenies? Who are these people? Why won't they agree with my correctness? It's like trying to explain how it feels to be buggered if you're not gay or something. In fact you should live for a year as a homosexual. Otherwise how can your be sure that you're really hetrosexual? You haven't tried it so your opinion on your own sexuality is meaningless.

You're clearly a noob to disk brakes, but I didn't read your post, because it's against my opinion so it must be wrong on the internet. You could have 20 years riding disk brakes, but I didn't read that far because I'm trying the ignorance shouty argument win method. Is it working yet? :lol:

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Beaver
Posts: 720
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:06 pm
Location: Lower Saxony - Germany

by Beaver

Don't waste your energy on that topic, there are other ones we should argue about. ;) In general, trying to make the opponent implausible, only shows, that you ran out of arguments. ;)

Disc will always be more expensive, heavier, less aero and more complicated. If you want or need it anyway, everything is fine, but the fact, that rim brakes are meant to become extinct, confines the freedom of those who don't. And e.g. as a 70kg sunshine rider in the flat, I don't really see the benefits.

XCProMD
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

As a 70 kg rider in the Alps neither do I. Not a big deal for me, I have already two road bikes with discs. But still I prefer rim.


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Pinguin
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:28 pm

by Pinguin

What is with brake pads wear between disc and rim brakes
I ride only rim brakes,but could think disc pads are more expensive and go down faster?

mattr
Posts: 4673
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

Not really, in my experience i've found that in good conditions it's pretty much the same, months and months.
In bad conditions, you can eat rim brake pads in a few weeks. Disc is almost unaffected. (might reduce life 20%, i've not quantified it though.)

Costs for decent pads are maybe 50% more for discs. Last ones i bought was about €18-20 for a set of 4 rim pads and €25-28 for 4 disc pads. But i stockpile, so that might have changed since last i invested (4 or 5 years ago)

ducman
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:49 pm

by ducman

For what it's worth, i have a few bikes, rim & disk.
My disc bikes give me the impression (nice) that they stop easier/quicker.
My rim bike have a more 'lightness' feeling about them, can't explain. 🙄
I also find it disturbing that manufacturers mostly discard rim brake setups.
Anyway, normaly by the end of the week my new rim brake bike wil be ready. (Difficult enough allready to find Sram Red Etap rim in stock... 😒 )

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

mattr wrote:That'd only be true if you had a perfectly linear relationship between lever movement and pad movement. Which you don't.
The industry has spent decades trying to optimse leverage ratios between lever and caliper. (With a nod to ergonomics.)
Pads hit the rim too early in the lever stroke you get wooden feeling brakes with no modulation at all, too late, your lever bottoms out...... Get them to hit quarter or so of the way through the lever stroke and you hit the sweet spot. Depending on rim width, frame geo, pad wear/type, cable type/installation and so on.
I run my lever throw very long and it makes a huge difference to feel. Never understood the people who run 5mm of lever throw....

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