Are We Getting A New Cannondale Supersix?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3624
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Dan Gerous wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:15 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:03 am
octave wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:23 am
current gen SSEHM has a carbon PF30a bb shell. no metal insert
The literature on that Instagram post does say “alloy PF30” or something weird like that so I’m confused. If they are using alloy inserts, then why not go BB30[a]?
That refers to PF30 bearings that are in alloy cups instead of plastic like SRAM has, the frame's BB shell is only carbon..

Ah that makes perfect sense now, especially why they didn’t list the BB as PF30a since the cups don’t care.

by Weenie


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kgt
Posts: 7650
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:46 pm
Karvalo wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:59 pm
Your link says you're wrong. Sorry buddy.
And also...
“Viewer interpretations of beauty may on occasion be observed to possess two concepts of value: aesthetics and taste. Aesthetics is the philosophical notion of beauty. Taste is a result of an education process and awareness of elite cultural values learned through exposure to mass culture. Bourdieu examined how the elite in society define the aesthetic values like taste and how varying levels of exposure to these values can result in variations by class, cultural background, and education.”
Pretty much every paragraph on that page refers back to the subjectivity of aesthetic judgment.
Guys, just let it go. It is obvious that you cannot even understand what these simple paragraphs say...

tarmackev
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm

by tarmackev

If “Aesthetics is the philosophical notion of beauty” then the new frame isn’t to my taste.
Either way like others have said, I’m not too keen on it.
How does a thread on a Supersix turn in to the definition of the word “aesthetics”.
Also there are many other definitions of the word, plenty that would make Tobinhatesyou correct and KGT wrong but I’m not going to copy and paste them to prove a point. Just google it.

Back to the Supersix, I actually think the team version looks great, some of the stock colours not so much.


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3624
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

kgt wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:49 am

Guys, just let it go. It is obvious that you cannot even understand what these simple paragraphs say...

Are you attempting to gaslight us with respect to the definitions of words now? What do you even think the word judgment in “aesthetic judgment” means?

Karvalo
Posts: 626
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

kgt wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:49 am
Guys, just let it go. It is obvious that you cannot even understand what these simple paragraphs say...
Oh right then. Subjective doesn't really mean subjective. Great argument buddy, very convincing.

Personally I'm not convinced about the paint job but the frame looks great - and a lot of people who still say they don't like it now will like it when they see it for real.

robeambro
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

Nobody mentioned how horrible those paintjobs - well, most of them - are?

Although not sure I can express a view, I'm pretty sure there's a panel of beauty experts somewhere who's already determined whether the new SS is objectively beautiful or not

Edit: Damn Karvalo, by 1 minute.

Jugi
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:10 am

by Jugi

Mep wrote:
At this time the Tarmac SL6 has arguably one of the best compromises between weight and aero, and if Cannondale can push the envelope higher, I'm all for it. You're referring to the bottom bracket shell being metal? Isn't that the same as on the SuperSix Evo, Izalco Max?
It will be very interesting to see the first in-depth ride reviews, and even more so if they include technical details. In my opinion two things separate the current crop of road bikes - brand popularity/awareness and these technical details. If the Tarmac SL6 is being used as a benchmark, most likely there are multiple things which can be enhanced in terms of aerodynamics and weight. On the flip side, for example cable and hose integration into the head tube means considerably harder installation and maintenance.

I hope Cannondale has done the integration in a user-friendly way. Considering how typical creaking bottom brackets have been on some C'dales, in my opinion they should produce a technically well put together bike. Even if that means making compromises on aero drag and weight. I wouldn't like to spend a considerable amount of time building a bike, only to discover it develops a creak or some other issue requiring regular maintenance or tweaking.

Geometry and ride feel should be spot on. I have always steered clear of the previous SuperSix because I didn't like the looks. The new model is definetly a step towards a better, contemporary design. Hopefully the paint jobs are up to date as well.

ianeire
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:08 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

by ianeire

It's a pity there are none of those pictures in "primer grey", that seems to be the best I've seen so far. They did a '16 HM in that style paint previously.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 3624
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The lack of a big logo exacerbates the issue of dull colors. It would break the monotony, provide contrast, plus you can get creative with it...flashy stencils, pearls, colors that pop, fades, patterns, etc. I don’t get Cannondale’s sudden affection for “champagne...” I’m reminded of early 90s luxury sedans. Primer or nardo gray? For that battleship hull look?

Karvalo
Posts: 626
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

Some of the colours are OK, I'm just confused by the layout. It might be that they're trying a new spin on the classic team paint template that Ridley brought back a few years ago, but I don't get why they seem to have used it on every single model. With what looks like 2 colour options in most models anyway, they could have split one normal and one like this at least. And yeah, more bright options.

Image

gbrnole
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:40 pm

by gbrnole

Jugi wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:01 am
Mep wrote:
At this time the Tarmac SL6 has arguably one of the best compromises between weight and aero, and if Cannondale can push the envelope higher, I'm all for it. You're referring to the bottom bracket shell being metal? Isn't that the same as on the SuperSix Evo, Izalco Max?
It will be very interesting to see the first in-depth ride reviews, and even more so if they include technical details. In my opinion two things separate the current crop of road bikes - brand popularity/awareness and these technical details. If the Tarmac SL6 is being used as a benchmark, most likely there are multiple things which can be enhanced in terms of aerodynamics and weight. On the flip side, for example cable and hose integration into the head tube means considerably harder installation and maintenance.

I hope Cannondale has done the integration in a user-friendly way. Considering how typical creaking bottom brackets have been on some C'dales, in my opinion they should produce a technically well put together bike. Even if that means making compromises on aero drag and weight. I wouldn't like to spend a considerable amount of time building a bike, only to discover it develops a creak or some other issue requiring regular maintenance or tweaking.

Geometry and ride feel should be spot on. I have always steered clear of the previous SuperSix because I didn't like the looks. The new model is definetly a step towards a better, contemporary design. Hopefully the paint jobs are up to date as well.
hopefully, Cannondale does/did an apple to apple comparison between the supersix and the tarmac. Their own testing shows that the systemsix had a CdA of approximately 0.063 at low and zero degree yaw angles and reducing down to a minimum CdA of approximately 0.055 at ten degrees yaw. The image on the previous page shows that the supersix is approximately 0.075 CdA at zero yaw and increases out to about 0.078 at ten degrees yaw.

when cannondale did their systemsix test, the venge vias they used was running 26mm turbo cottons vs the 23mm rubino pros on the systemsix. That alone immediately skews the results - especially since cannondale claim there is virtually no difference between a GP4000 23mm and 25mm mounted on their knot64 wheels.

If the tarmac they used in the results on the previous page was round bars, 26mm turbo cotton, rim brakes - chances are that a tarmac might be more aero than the supersix if aero road bars, conti tires and discs are added (specialized claim that the tarmac SL6 is slightly more aero for the disc version than rim brakes in their wintunnel test).

either way, a quick calc appears to show that, from cannondale's tests, the systemsix is about 15 watts faster than the new supersix. Tour mag's test only put an allez sprint with zipp 404's at 16 watts slower than the systemsix?

Stueys
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

gbrnole wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:13 pm

either way, a quick calc appears to show that, from cannondale's tests, the systemsix is about 15 watts faster than the new supersix. Tour mag's test only put an allez sprint with zipp 404's at 16 watts slower than the systemsix?
They will need to have gone further than that to be compelling.

robeambro
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

gbrnole wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:13 pm
Jugi wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:01 am
Mep wrote:
At this time the Tarmac SL6 has arguably one of the best compromises between weight and aero, and if Cannondale can push the envelope higher, I'm all for it. You're referring to the bottom bracket shell being metal? Isn't that the same as on the SuperSix Evo, Izalco Max?
It will be very interesting to see the first in-depth ride reviews, and even more so if they include technical details. In my opinion two things separate the current crop of road bikes - brand popularity/awareness and these technical details. If the Tarmac SL6 is being used as a benchmark, most likely there are multiple things which can be enhanced in terms of aerodynamics and weight. On the flip side, for example cable and hose integration into the head tube means considerably harder installation and maintenance.

I hope Cannondale has done the integration in a user-friendly way. Considering how typical creaking bottom brackets have been on some C'dales, in my opinion they should produce a technically well put together bike. Even if that means making compromises on aero drag and weight. I wouldn't like to spend a considerable amount of time building a bike, only to discover it develops a creak or some other issue requiring regular maintenance or tweaking.

Geometry and ride feel should be spot on. I have always steered clear of the previous SuperSix because I didn't like the looks. The new model is definetly a step towards a better, contemporary design. Hopefully the paint jobs are up to date as well.
hopefully, Cannondale does/did an apple to apple comparison between the supersix and the tarmac. Their own testing shows that the systemsix had a CdA of approximately 0.063 at low and zero degree yaw angles and reducing down to a minimum CdA of approximately 0.055 at ten degrees yaw. The image on the previous page shows that the supersix is approximately 0.075 CdA at zero yaw and increases out to about 0.078 at ten degrees yaw.

when cannondale did their systemsix test, the venge vias they used was running 26mm turbo cottons vs the 23mm rubino pros on the systemsix. That alone immediately skews the results - especially since cannondale claim there is virtually no difference between a GP4000 23mm and 25mm mounted on their knot64 wheels.

If the tarmac they used in the results on the previous page was round bars, 26mm turbo cotton, rim brakes - chances are that a tarmac might be more aero than the supersix if aero road bars, conti tires and discs are added (specialized claim that the tarmac SL6 is slightly more aero for the disc version than rim brakes in their wintunnel test).

either way, a quick calc appears to show that, from cannondale's tests, the systemsix is about 15 watts faster than the new supersix. Tour mag's test only put an allez sprint with zipp 404's at 16 watts slower than the systemsix?
There's roughly 0.003 CdA difference vs the Tarmac, which equates to between 3-4 watts @ 45km/h. To be honest this would be somewhat remarkable only if they'd done an apple to apple comparison, but I doubt they did. Which would mean that, once you put an aero handlebar on the Tarmac, the difference would be non-existent.

Also, not sure why it says "BMC Roadmachine", shouldn't they have tested the Teammachine (which would also have lower stack and aero handlebars)? Another potential example of cherry picking.

Usual Emonda aero as a brick wearing a plastic shopping bag.

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

robeambro wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:04 pm

There's roughly 0.003 CdA difference vs the Tarmac, which equates to between 3-4 watts @ 45km/h. To be honest this would be somewhat remarkable only if they'd done an apple to apple comparison, but I doubt they did. Which would mean that, once you put an aero handlebar on the Tarmac, the difference would be non-existent.

Also, not sure why it says "BMC Roadmachine", shouldn't they have tested the Teammachine (which would also have lower stack and aero handlebars)? Another potential example of cherry picking.

Usual Emonda aero as a brick wearing a plastic shopping bag.
I know there are many fans of Trek bikes on this forum, and this is totally OTT for the tread but it just struck me: objectively speaking, Trek makes bad bikes. :unbelievable: Their Madone, while very much aero, is very porky - to a point where I've not seen that many pros use them in races, and certainly not where any climbing is involved. And their Emonda is, as you say, aero as a brick - and so much so that even it's light weight cannot possibly overcome that drag disadvantage on most topographies, even for those who are not constrained by the minimum weight limit. It just seems like a slower choice than the competition either way. Maybe the Domane is good for the unique demands of the Roubaix, but that's about it? :noidea:

by Weenie


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C36
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by C36

While we wait for some more official / 3rd party info, crossing the S6 white paper with the SSE3 aero graphs available on the web. Still has to be taken with a pinch of salt since we compare frame/cockpit/wheels...

At 0.073 m2 as cda it is aligned with F10 (s6 white paper) Roughly 0.007 CdA improvement versus the SL6, that’s 8-10w gain at 45pkh. Translating to Tour numbers that would put the SSe3 in the low 210, where the Pinarello f10 currently stands. Probably behind the latest madone or canyon aerohead in “similar” configuration.



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