Are We Getting A New Cannondale Supersix?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

spud wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:07 pm
I haven't bothered to look at a geo chart, but as I recall, the 54 has a longer front center than the 56. Net effect is to put less weight on the front wheel, which can lead to overly light steering/lack of stability. The solution of using a zero set back post and longer stem seems like an appropriate means of compensation, provided you can still feel like you are settled "into" the bike, rather than perched on top of it.

Aero wheels will also have potentially strong effect - different depths and especially shapes will have different yaw moments when steering (and introducing yaw to the front end), in addition to different abilities to deal with transient air flows. This is all strictly theoretical, and I cannot offer practical advice as to which wheels to use. Though I'd hazard a guess that wheels that do well on Hambini's aero test tend to be more able to deal with transience and therefor, are a decent starting point for experimentation.
Dan Gerous has also commented on the geometry of the new Evo in size 54 in that respect and has advised using a longer stem as well as bringing the saddle forward in order to load more the front wheel and also bring the center of gravity toward the middle of the bike. Perhaps he could chime in and explain further. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the reasons I'm sticking to my previous generation Evo Disc size 54 that suits me perfectly with a slammed 120mm -8deg stem. Its handling is magical.

by Weenie


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Spinnekop
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: South Africa

by Spinnekop

S6ED wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:19 pm
spud wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:07 pm
I haven't bothered to look at a geo chart, but as I recall, the 54 has a longer front center than the 56. Net effect is to put less weight on the front wheel, which can lead to overly light steering/lack of stability. The solution of using a zero set back post and longer stem seems like an appropriate means of compensation, provided you can still feel like you are settled "into" the bike, rather than perched on top of it.

Aero wheels will also have potentially strong effect - different depths and especially shapes will have different yaw moments when steering (and introducing yaw to the front end), in addition to different abilities to deal with transient air flows. This is all strictly theoretical, and I cannot offer practical advice as to which wheels to use. Though I'd hazard a guess that wheels that do well on Hambini's aero test tend to be more able to deal with transience and therefor, are a decent starting point for experimentation.
Dan Gerous has also commented on the geometry of the new Evo in size 54 in that respect and has advised using a longer stem as well as bringing the saddle forward in order to load more the front wheel and also bring the center of gravity toward the middle of the bike. Perhaps he could chime in and explain further. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the reasons I'm sticking to my previous generation Evo Disc size 54 that suits me perfectly with a slammed 120mm -8deg stem. Its handling is magical.
I moved from a size 54 Evo II to a size 54 Evo III.
Same wheelset, Zipp 404 NSW (Just moved from rim brake to disc brake)
Both bikes have a zero offset seatpost with a 110mm stem. Same groupset.

I have now done around 17 000km over the past year over varying terrain. Lots of climbing, flat roads, fast downhills up to 95km/h and some twisty descents. Add some windy rides (wind of up to 40/50km/h) and I can safely say that I have managed to do all if it on the Evo III without and issues.
As a "fun rider" doing around 13 hours of hard training every week I don't see any problems with steering or handling. I can confidently say this bike freewheels much faster than the old bike. Other than that, based on FEELING, you wont see a difference. Not in my case anyway.
"In my experience, there is only one motivation, and that is DESIRE.
No reason or principle contain it or stand against it........"

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flashpunk
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by flashpunk

Anyone who has the Farsports bars, I was riding this morning and noticed my head unit was rattling around. Turns out one of the screws holding the out front mount came loose and was rattling out, it almost completely unscrewed on its own. No locktite on those screws!

S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Spinnekop wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:32 am
I moved from a size 54 Evo II to a size 54 Evo III.
Same wheelset, Zipp 404 NSW (Just moved from rim brake to disc brake)
Both bikes have a zero offset seatpost with a 110mm stem. Same groupset.

I have now done around 17 000km over the past year over varying terrain. Lots of climbing, flat roads, fast downhills up to 95km/h and some twisty descents. Add some windy rides (wind of up to 40/50km/h) and I can safely say that I have managed to do all if it on the Evo III without and issues.
As a "fun rider" doing around 13 hours of hard training every week I don't see any problems with steering or handling. I can confidently say this bike freewheels much faster than the old bike. Other than that, based on FEELING, you wont see a difference. Not in my case anyway.
Thanks for the input. Good to hear that the new bike has retained the handling characteristics of its predecesor, also in size 54.

Apart from - in your case - disc brakes and apart from the aero gains (for me irrelevant as I only do lengthy climbs of avg. 6% at max avg. speed of 17km/h), do you notice any improvements over the previous Evo?

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:07 pm
Spinnekop wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:32 am
I moved from a size 54 Evo II to a size 54 Evo III.
Same wheelset, Zipp 404 NSW (Just moved from rim brake to disc brake)
Both bikes have a zero offset seatpost with a 110mm stem. Same groupset.

I have now done around 17 000km over the past year over varying terrain. Lots of climbing, flat roads, fast downhills up to 95km/h and some twisty descents. Add some windy rides (wind of up to 40/50km/h) and I can safely say that I have managed to do all if it on the Evo III without and issues.
As a "fun rider" doing around 13 hours of hard training every week I don't see any problems with steering or handling. I can confidently say this bike freewheels much faster than the old bike. Other than that, based on FEELING, you wont see a difference. Not in my case anyway.
Thanks for the input. Good to hear that the new bike has retained the handling characteristics of its predecesor, also in size 54.

Apart from - in your case - disc brakes and apart from the aero gains (for me irrelevant as I only do lengthy climbs of avg. 6% at max avg. speed of 17km/h), do you notice any improvements over the previous Evo?
I love the new 54, with a 0 setback post and 110mm stem, with the stock 100mm stem and more saddle setback the front feels too disconnected, too light when cornering hard while these were okay on the old Evo IMO. I don't miss anything about the Evo 2 and it's a lot faster...

Do you only ride uphill and take a car down then if you don't care about aero and to have averages of 17km/h? The new one descends much faster than the old one, less air resistance, aero is still there at 17km/h but the faster you go the bigger the advantage. But more aero also means more stability at high speeds in my experience, same with the longer wheelbase, the bike feels more calm and under control at very high speeds, yet the trail keeps the sharp and quick handling when it gets twisty... And in valley roads between climbs you'll either spend less energy or just be faster there. The aero improvement is huge.
Last edited by Dan Gerous on Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Dan Gerous wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:21 pm
S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:07 pm
Spinnekop wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:32 am
I moved from a size 54 Evo II to a size 54 Evo III.
Same wheelset, Zipp 404 NSW (Just moved from rim brake to disc brake)
Both bikes have a zero offset seatpost with a 110mm stem. Same groupset.

I have now done around 17 000km over the past year over varying terrain. Lots of climbing, flat roads, fast downhills up to 95km/h and some twisty descents. Add some windy rides (wind of up to 40/50km/h) and I can safely say that I have managed to do all if it on the Evo III without and issues.
As a "fun rider" doing around 13 hours of hard training every week I don't see any problems with steering or handling. I can confidently say this bike freewheels much faster than the old bike. Other than that, based on FEELING, you wont see a difference. Not in my case anyway.
Thanks for the input. Good to hear that the new bike has retained the handling characteristics of its predecesor, also in size 54.

Apart from - in your case - disc brakes and apart from the aero gains (for me irrelevant as I only do lengthy climbs of avg. 6% at max avg. speed of 17km/h), do you notice any improvements over the previous Evo?
I love the new 54, with a 0 setback post and 110mm stem, with the stock 100mm stem and more saddle setback the front feels too disconnected, too light when cornering hard. I don't miss anything about the Evo 2 and it's a lot faster...

Do you only ride uphill and take a car down then if you don't care about aero and to have averages of 17km/h? The new one descends much faster than the old one, less air resistance which is still there at 17km/h but the faster you go the bigger the advantage. But more aero also means more stability at high speeds in my experience, same with the longer wheelbase... And in valley roads between climbs you'll either spend less energy or just be faster there. The aero improvement is huge.
No, I do ride the bike back home! :lol: The avg. speed of 17km/h is for the ascend only. But, if anything, I try to remind myself to ride slower, when descending, not faster. :smartass: That said, your point regarding more stability due to the aero desing is quite interesting and admitedly I hadn't thought about it. You can't have too much stability when bombing the col!

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:32 pm
Dan Gerous wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:21 pm
S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:07 pm
Spinnekop wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:32 am
I moved from a size 54 Evo II to a size 54 Evo III.
Same wheelset, Zipp 404 NSW (Just moved from rim brake to disc brake)
Both bikes have a zero offset seatpost with a 110mm stem. Same groupset.

I have now done around 17 000km over the past year over varying terrain. Lots of climbing, flat roads, fast downhills up to 95km/h and some twisty descents. Add some windy rides (wind of up to 40/50km/h) and I can safely say that I have managed to do all if it on the Evo III without and issues.
As a "fun rider" doing around 13 hours of hard training every week I don't see any problems with steering or handling. I can confidently say this bike freewheels much faster than the old bike. Other than that, based on FEELING, you wont see a difference. Not in my case anyway.
Thanks for the input. Good to hear that the new bike has retained the handling characteristics of its predecesor, also in size 54.

Apart from - in your case - disc brakes and apart from the aero gains (for me irrelevant as I only do lengthy climbs of avg. 6% at max avg. speed of 17km/h), do you notice any improvements over the previous Evo?
I love the new 54, with a 0 setback post and 110mm stem, with the stock 100mm stem and more saddle setback the front feels too disconnected, too light when cornering hard. I don't miss anything about the Evo 2 and it's a lot faster...

Do you only ride uphill and take a car down then if you don't care about aero and to have averages of 17km/h? The new one descends much faster than the old one, less air resistance which is still there at 17km/h but the faster you go the bigger the advantage. But more aero also means more stability at high speeds in my experience, same with the longer wheelbase... And in valley roads between climbs you'll either spend less energy or just be faster there. The aero improvement is huge.
No, I do ride the bike back home! :lol: The avg. speed of 17km/h is for the ascend only. But, if anything, I try to remind myself to ride slower, when descending, not faster. :smartass: That said, your point regarding more stability due to the aero desing is quite interesting and admitedly I hadn't thought about it. You can't have too much stability when bombing the col!
You must be going through brake pads daily to end with such low averages! :shock:

hannawald
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Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

I think he didn't mean try to ride slower than 17 km/h downhill, good joke:)

hannawald
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Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

flashpunk wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:22 pm
Anyone who has the Farsports bars, I was riding this morning and noticed my head unit was rattling around. Turns out one of the screws holding the out front mount came loose and was rattling out, it almost completely unscrewed on its own. No locktite on those screws!
I had similar experience so taped the garmin holder with double sided tape and used loctite on bolts.

S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

hannawald wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:04 pm
I think he didn't mean try to ride slower than 17 km/h downhill, good joke:)
:lol:

So here! It's all climbs, it's just a mountainous terrain here :up:
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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1953
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by Dan Gerous

Max speed 82.8, there you go! :thumbup:

You would (or could) easily have hit above 90km/h on the new Evo! Your averages are not 17km/h either, you were selling yourself short there! :D

I think you have told me before but I can't remember, french Alps?

S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Dan Gerous wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:22 pm
Max speed 82.8, there you go! :thumbup:

You would (or could) easily have hit above 90km/h on the new Evo! Your averages are not 17km/h either, you were selling yourself short there! :D

I think you have told me before but I can't remember, french Alps?
Mon Dieu! I don't want to go any faster than that! :mrgreen:

Attika, Greece, there's a couple of mountains in the region.
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Last edited by S6ED on Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan Gerous
Posts: 1953
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:28 pm

by Dan Gerous

Nice! :thumbup:

I think a bike like the new Evo makes it easier to ride fast downhill, it's more aero by a huge amount so frontal air slips more easily around it, you decide if you just ride faster but if not, at the same speed, air shakes the bike less which helps the stability.

In theory a pure aero bike like a SystemSix should make it descend even faster or even more 'stabler' at a given speed, but from my experience riding in high mountains when you often ride at such speeds for extended stretches of road, I feel shallower tube shapes and shallower rims makes it much easier and safer to comfortably ride fast as when it winds in the high mountains, the wind can be violent and gusts can be scary, you can sometimes not feel any wind but after riding through a hairpin and then being past a ridge, BOOM! Wind can surprise. Very strong wind gusts from the side on deep rims and deep frame tube shapes is probably quite scary up there, which is only multiplied the faster you go.

To go back to the one who had stability issues on steep descents, there must be something going on in your particular setup, personally I had one of each generation of SuperSixes from back when they were not yet called Evos to the 2020 and I find the latest one to be the most stable and confidence inspiring on fast steep descents, it's just so calm and behaved and ready to obey any steering input you want to give it.

S6ED
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Dan Gerous wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:04 pm
Nice! :thumbup:

I think a bike like the new Evo makes it easier to ride fast downhill, it's more aero by a huge amount so frontal air slips more easily around it, you decide if you just ride faster but if not, at the same speed, air shakes the bike less which helps the stability.

In theory a pure aero bike like a SystemSix should make it descend even faster or even more 'stabler' at a given speed, but from my experience riding in high mountains when you often ride at such speeds for extended stretches of road, I feel shallower tube shapes and shallower rims makes it much easier and safer to comfortably ride fast as when it winds in the high mountains, the wind can be violent and gusts can be scary, you can sometimes not feel any wind but after riding through a hairpin and then being past a ridge, BOOM! Wind can surprise. Very strong wind gusts from the side on deep rims and deep frame tube shapes is probably quite scary up there, which is only multiplied the faster you go.

To go back to the one who had stability issues on steep descents, there must be something going on in your particular setup, personally I had one of each generation of SuperSixes from back when they were not yet called Evos to the 2020 and I find the latest one to be the most stable and confidence inspiring on fast steep descents, it's just so calm and behaved and ready to obey any steering input you want to give it.
The situation in the mountains is exactly as you describe it, the wind can take you by surprise and the weather can change dramatically in a matter of minutes. I've had quite a few stormy rides with crazy gusts of wind and the older Evo as well as the Mavic Cosmic 40mm disc wheelset have behaved exceptionally well. I can imagine the new Evo to be even better in that respect. So I can't imagine it being unstable and unconnected when descending fast, as Daid said in his/her post. But perhaps he/she can elaborate on that experience.

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Spinnekop
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: South Africa

by Spinnekop

S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:41 pm
Dan Gerous wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:22 pm
Max speed 82.8, there you go! :thumbup:

You would (or could) easily have hit above 90km/h on the new Evo! Your averages are not 17km/h either, you were selling yourself short there! :D

I think you have told me before but I can't remember, french Alps?
Mon Dieu! I don't want to go any faster than that! :mrgreen:

Attika, Greece, there's a couple of mountains in the region.
You ride in amazing places.....wow.
I would LOVE to have those mountains in my back drop.

S6ED wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:07 pm
Thanks for the input. Good to hear that the new bike has retained the handling characteristics of its predecesor, also in size 54.

Apart from - in your case - disc brakes and apart from the aero gains (for me irrelevant as I only do lengthy climbs of avg. 6% at max avg. speed of 17km/h), do you notice any improvements over the previous Evo?
Improvements? Is it better than my old Evo? Yes.
It climbs like a home-sick angle......sprints like cheetah and I freewheel past everyone on the descents.......although that might be the extra weight gained in Covid lockdown. :D
This in general, I am very happy that I went with the new bike.

The climbing ability of the bike was a worry for me at first, being an "aero bike" and all.
We recently did a stint in some of South Africa's "high mountains" :lol:
https://www.strava.com/activities/4047935752
The bike was amazing. Handling was good on the descents and the ups was a piece of cake.
:thumbup:
"In my experience, there is only one motivation, and that is DESIRE.
No reason or principle contain it or stand against it........"

by Weenie


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