Are We Getting A New Cannondale Supersix?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
3Pio
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

ichobi wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:47 am
Cannondale makes competitive race bike. It has to be fast. If being fast means look like another modern bike well tough luck. Dont get this whole not being traditional look either. The old Supersix is unique now? What about the steel bike with horizontal top tube in the past 50 years? If you want traditional looking bike there are tons of choice in the market. I dont see why this design is purely marketing there are not so many shape you can make the bike fast light and comfortable. If it doesnt work other brands would not have done it. Does it look original. Of course not. I am not defending their design choice but to think everything is marketing is lazy. Dont want it? Go buy something else. No brand can please everyone every time. If you think they make a poor design choice (I do, their color sucks.), vote with your wallet.
There is engineering in last 50 years and marketing.. Switching from steel to carbon add some real engineering and benefit (Stiffer, lighter, ability to shape the form which will meet function (in term on what part to get stifness (for example BB area), and where to get comfort in same time).. Where to loos weight but not loose reliability etc.....).. THis now is just marketing (Aero Frames and Discs) which exist just for consumerism and to make u buying things u dont need...

I just checked Cannondale Owners group on FB (group where u meet people who have or like Cannondale and have BIAS for Cannondale brand). I can see that there NOT A SINGLE person there which like new model.. Seem that Cannondale with this new model will not be able to beat Specialized (Since SL6 it's light, loose the value slower, good warranty, etc...), and in same time will lost base of existant customers.. And u really believe that this new model will be faster then the old one in real world?

Let's talk this way.. The rear brake drag on new model probaby will be more compared to existing model (based on cable routing).. More drag, less modulation.. Less modulation, u are slower... So at least one part where new model will be slower (and which u are able to notice without having a Wind Tunel)

So u still believe that new model have this shape because it's shape which will make u faster?

by Weenie


tarmackev
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm

by tarmackev

I love Cannondale, the brand, the history and I think their bikes ride great.
I like the way they try different things and don’t always follow the herd.
With discs not being needed it depends where you ride. Euro mountains I’ve never felt the need.
Short steep UK descents that get steeper at the bottom they’re a game changer.
Obviously not fit for everyone but it’s not black and white, there certainly is a market and a need, just because you don’t need them where you ride doesn’t mean they aren’t needed or a significant improvement over rim brakes.
I think the Super Six looks great, similar but not the same as other bikes.
Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

3Pio
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

tarmackev wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:29 am
I love Cannondale, the brand, the history and I think their bikes ride great.
I like the way they try different things and don’t always follow the herd.
With discs not being needed it depends where you ride. Euro mountains I’ve never felt the need.
Short steep UK descents that get steeper at the bottom they’re a game changer.
Obviously not fit for everyone but it’s not black and white, there certainly is a market and a need, just because you don’t need them where you ride doesn’t mean they aren’t needed or a significant improvement over rim brakes.
I think the Super Six looks great, similar but not the same as other bikes.
Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im riding in area surrounder with mountains.. Different kind.. Very steep (17-18% sometimes) , a lot of switchbacks sometimes, bad road.. Some of them very long and steep (like yesterday 18.5 km 7% avg).. Or few weeks ago 10 km with 9% avg (a lot of switchbacks)..

I'll add some pics from that segments from rides last month.. So u'll have idea.. And i really dont feel i need discs there.. What is interesting we are not any slower versus guys on Discs on same rides....

But sometimes pictures show the things much better then words...This is some of segments i had on my rides in last month...All of them Carbon Wheelset (Bora), all of them Tubular, all of them Rim Brakes...

Image

Image

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Image

Image

Image

Karvalo
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

ultyguy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:55 am
Agree, problem for Cannondale is that their now last 2 bikes just scream ‘we’re a company 2 years behind the dev cycle but now we have recreated the same thing as Spesh.’ It’s really not going to help their brand which sucks.
Which is unfair, since the Tarmac was far from the first or only bike to create that silhouette.

Then, the thing about the Tarmac is up close it doesn't 'look' that aero, It's still just got a fat round downtube. The main tube shapes on this new Evo look much more shaped, the chainstays are flatter and the seatstays thinner. I actually think it looks like a significantly more modern bike than the Tarmac does.

Stueys
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

Not sure we need another disc V rim brake debate. The summary is whether we like it or not, most of the manufacturer development spend is moving the top end bikes/components onto disc. We'll continue to see the new bike releases being disc biased as a consequence. As with everything else that trend will accelerate onto the mid-level bikes and then finally the lower end. It's in their interests and there appears to be market pull, done deal.

reedplayer
Posts: 472
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 am

by reedplayer

3Pio wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:11 am
....
Unfortunately, we are living in age when Marketing beat real Engineering...
...and when the designer beats the real engineer....a friend of mine, leading engineer at "BMW" told me: most important today: car has to look "good", means in accordance with current viewing habits, in the showroom. no gaps, like one single part, quite similar to the integration-insanity on bikes! user friendly engineering/solutions, quality, everything which is not visible, stand behind.

similar at the bike market. dropped seatstays,f.e., are a very old story, especially tt-bikes had it again and again in the past. making it a marketing instrument for road bikes is new, and at least on boards like this, it seems to work (but who knows how many bots/trolls, meanwhile an important marketing instrument, are involved...)

User avatar
corky
Posts: 1293
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

Stueys wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 am
Not sure we need another disc V rim brake debate. The summary is whether we like it or not, most of the manufacturer development spend is moving the top end bikes/components onto disc. We'll continue to see the new bike releases being disc biased as a consequence. As with everything else that trend will accelerate onto the mid-level bikes and then finally the lower end. It's in their interests and there appears to be market pull, done deal.
Mmmm but if they don’t sell.......

Is it industry push or consumer pull..?....... to me it seems it’s the US manufacturers push and US consumer pull.....

Karvalo
Posts: 667
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

3Pio wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:11 am
For example, i wonder if there is one reason why someone will buy this new SSIX Evo versus Specialized SL6? How this new SSIX Evo is distinctive and what charateristic should make me to buy this and not some of the others?
Looking at it, it's probably more aero and almost certainly more comfortable. As long as the weight is on par, why not flip the question round and ask why you should buy the SL6 instead of the Evo3? Is there one positive reason that isn't only based on brand identity or paint schemes to get the Tarmac?

tarmackev
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm

by tarmackev

3Pio wrote:
tarmackev wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:29 am
I love Cannondale, the brand, the history and I think their bikes ride great.
I like the way they try different things and don’t always follow the herd.
With discs not being needed it depends where you ride. Euro mountains I’ve never felt the need.
Short steep UK descents that get steeper at the bottom they’re a game changer.
Obviously not fit for everyone but it’s not black and white, there certainly is a market and a need, just because you don’t need them where you ride doesn’t mean they aren’t needed or a significant improvement over rim brakes.
I think the Super Six looks great, similar but not the same as other bikes.
Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im riding in area surrounder with mountains.. Different kind.. Very steep (17-18% sometimes) , a lot of switchbacks sometimes, bad road.. Some of them very long and steep (like yesterday 18.5 km 7% avg).. Or few weeks ago 10 km with 9% avg (a lot of switchbacks)..

I'll add some pics from that segments from rides last month.. So u'll have idea.. And i really dont feel i need discs there.. What is interesting we are not any slower versus guys on Discs on same rides....

But sometimes pictures show the things much better then words...This is some of segments i had on my rides in last month...All of them Carbon Wheelset (Bora), all of them Tubular, all of them Rim Brakes...
]
Each to their own I guess, I can honestly say everyone I ride with who’s on discs who rides the steep hills in Derbyshire is faster on discs.
The majority of the hills are sketchy, gravel, moss, shadows, horse crap in places. Also fairly thin and you can have oncoming traffic.
They aren’t hills you can free wheel, you often have to ride the brakes the majority of the way down, carbon rims and wet and your brakes will be on top to bottom.
At times you’re on a 20% descent trying to keep your speed under 15-20mph (just in case).
No switch backs, no hair pins, generally straight.
Discs are a game changer, no warping of carbon.
No starting at the top with brakes on and getting to the bottom with levers pulled tight against the bars praying there’s enough friction to stop.
25-28mm tyres with discs isn’t essential but you have significantly more confidence and safety.
Sure on a summer night when it’s quiet there’s not much in it but there’s still a difference.
Lots of roads that come to a dead stop at a junction with gravel at the bottom.
I’m no super descender but I took the downhill KOM off a decent UK pro and ex sky rider just because of the discs.
It’s different for everyone in every area.
Riding the mountains and hills in Majorca and Lanzarote I never once felt the need to for discs even in torrential rain.
Wet, steep UK hills where you have to constantly control your speed they make a huge difference.
I guess it’s about how much braking you have to do.
It’s not about skill levels, it’s simply too dangerous to go down a single lane 20% + hill with the potential of oncoming traffic, horses, tractors and even potholes or bits of stone wall in the road.
There are some severe accidents at times, a lady died hitting a pothole descending in to Matlock, an Ex pro named Mark Washam broke his neck and was in a really bad way.
Not saying discs would have stopped these accidents but on certain roads they make an incredible difference.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stueys
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:12 pm

by Stueys

corky wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:44 am
Stueys wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:11 am
Not sure we need another disc V rim brake debate. The summary is whether we like it or not, most of the manufacturer development spend is moving the top end bikes/components onto disc. We'll continue to see the new bike releases being disc biased as a consequence. As with everything else that trend will accelerate onto the mid-level bikes and then finally the lower end. It's in their interests and there appears to be market pull, done deal.
Mmmm but if they don’t sell.......

Is it industry push or consumer pull..?....... to me it seems it’s the US manufacturers push and US consumer pull.....
If they don't sell - my LBS says that they are shifting 80% + disc now, the sense I get is that isn't unusual. Certainly when I visit other retailers the demo stock is predominantly disc. They are selling

Is it industrial push or consumer pull - both.

PeytonM
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:59 am

by PeytonM

I won’t judge it until the official release. Maybe they have a integrated cockpit solution and it will all come together.

But to be honest, maybe I need to grab an olter xr4 before rim brakes go extinct.

3Pio
Posts: 1215
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

tarmackev wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:57 am
3Pio wrote:
tarmackev wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:29 am
I love Cannondale, the brand, the history and I think their bikes ride great.
I like the way they try different things and don’t always follow the herd.
With discs not being needed it depends where you ride. Euro mountains I’ve never felt the need.
Short steep UK descents that get steeper at the bottom they’re a game changer.
Obviously not fit for everyone but it’s not black and white, there certainly is a market and a need, just because you don’t need them where you ride doesn’t mean they aren’t needed or a significant improvement over rim brakes.
I think the Super Six looks great, similar but not the same as other bikes.
Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im riding in area surrounder with mountains.. Different kind.. Very steep (17-18% sometimes) , a lot of switchbacks sometimes, bad road.. Some of them very long and steep (like yesterday 18.5 km 7% avg).. Or few weeks ago 10 km with 9% avg (a lot of switchbacks)..

I'll add some pics from that segments from rides last month.. So u'll have idea.. And i really dont feel i need discs there.. What is interesting we are not any slower versus guys on Discs on same rides....

But sometimes pictures show the things much better then words...This is some of segments i had on my rides in last month...All of them Carbon Wheelset (Bora), all of them Tubular, all of them Rim Brakes...
]
Each to their own I guess, I can honestly say everyone I ride with who’s on discs who rides the steep hills in Derbyshire is faster on discs.
The majority of the hills are sketchy, gravel, moss, shadows, horse crap in places. Also fairly thin and you can have oncoming traffic.
They aren’t hills you can free wheel, you often have to ride the brakes the majority of the way down, carbon rims and wet and your brakes will be on top to bottom.
At times you’re on a 20% descent trying to keep your speed under 15-20mph (just in case).
No switch backs, no hair pins, generally straight.
Discs are a game changer, no warping of carbon.
No starting at the top with brakes on and getting to the bottom with levers pulled tight against the bars praying there’s enough friction to stop.
25-28mm tyres with discs isn’t essential but you have significantly more confidence and safety.
Sure on a summer night when it’s quiet there’s not much in it but there’s still a difference.
Lots of roads that come to a dead stop at a junction with gravel at the bottom.
I’m no super descender but I took the downhill KOM off a decent UK pro and ex sky rider just because of the discs.
It’s different for everyone in every area.
Riding the mountains and hills in Majorca and Lanzarote I never once felt the need to for discs even in torrential rain.
Wet, steep UK hills where you have to constantly control your speed they make a huge difference.
I guess it’s about how much braking you have to do.
It’s not about skill levels, it’s simply too dangerous to go down a single lane 20% + hill with the potential of oncoming traffic, horses, tractors and even potholes or bits of stone wall in the road.
There are some severe accidents at times, a lady died hitting a pothole descending in to Matlock, an Ex pro named Mark Washam broke his neck and was in a really bad way.
Not saying discs would have stopped these accidents but on certain roads they make an incredible difference.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There was also two accidents here with Early Disc adaptors.. In both case they grab the brakes in Panic way.. Both of them broke the hips.. One off the bike 6 months, other one off the bike totaly (he stopped riding after his injury) and he needed few surgerys.. While they were on Rim Brake road bikes, they didnt have dangerous Panic Braking.... So not all the time Discs are safer... Or other case few months ago, riding in the group.. The guy in the front panic brake, and few peoples was crashed each other from the other rows..Im not saying that this wont happened with Rim Brakes, but at least less chance for panic and not controlled braking.... Anyway, let's dont make this topic against Rim Vs Discs....Each to his own.. For me and my riding, i'll try to avoid Discs as much as possible.. Might buy another Rim Brake Frameset just to be sure i'll have it for another few years...

BagelMaster
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:13 pm

by BagelMaster

3Pio wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:43 pm
There was also two accidents here with Early Disc adaptors.. In both case they grab the brakes in Panic way.. Both of them broke the hips.. One off the bike 6 months, other one off the bike totaly (he stopped riding after his injury) and he needed few surgerys.. While they were on Rim Brake road bikes, they didnt have dangerous Panic Braking.... So not all the time Discs are safer... Or other case few months ago, riding in the group.. The guy in the front panic brake, and few peoples was crashed each other from the other rows..Im not saying that this wont happened with Rim Brakes, but at least less chance for panic and not controlled braking.... Anyway, let's dont make this topic against Rim Vs Discs....Each to his own.. For me and my riding, i'll try to avoid Discs as much as possible.. Might buy another Rim Brake Frameset just to be sure i'll have it for another few years...
Fortunately you can stop beating your dead horse because there is a rim brake model.

How many times do we need to let every new bike thread devolve into a generic rim vs. disc debate? It’s getting old.

wingguy
Posts: 4263
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

3Pio wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:59 am
I just checked Cannondale Owners group on FB (group where u meet people who have or like Cannondale and have BIAS for Cannondale brand). I can see that there NOT A SINGLE person there which like new model..
Honestly doesn’t mean anything. Almost all new bikes get hit with a wave of negativity when the spy shots come out. Then the proper photos and detail shots come out and people see the design features the spy shots keep hidden and suddenly realise there’s more going on than they thought. Then they see the bike in the flesh and realise the photos don’t do it justice anyway.

Happens every time..

GrumpyOldPizza
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:24 pm

by GrumpyOldPizza

wingguy wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:54 pm
3Pio wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:59 am
I just checked Cannondale Owners group on FB (group where u meet people who have or like Cannondale and have BIAS for Cannondale brand). I can see that there NOT A SINGLE person there which like new model..
Honestly doesn’t mean anything. Almost all new bikes get hit with a wave of negativity when the spy shots come out. Then the proper photos and detail shots come out and people see the design features the spy shots keep hidden and suddenly realise there’s more going on than they thought. Then they see the bike in the flesh and realise the photos don’t do it justice anyway.

Happens every time..
Perhaps, perhaps not. I am lusting for a replacement for my CAAD10 (winter bike, flats). Disk brakes, ridden them once, and for a non-climber that might be the way to go. The EVO 3 would fit the bill. I don't care about the dropped rear stays ... But the boxy look is a turnoff (my knees often rub the top tube, will I now get a rash because of the hard edges ?) The headtube just looks plainly hideous. No way I'll ever gonna ride this. There is this point of a bike having to look half way sexy if I am gonna drop a significant amount of change. And this (on the few pictures that are available) looks downright ugly. The CAAD13 pictures on the other hand don't have this eye-soure ... But as I said before, this is with the first pictures, a EVO 3 with disk brakes and similar spacers to the SystemSix might not look that bad ... with a gray only frame ...

I don't quite get why Cannondale went this route. They have the aero bike covered with the SystemSix. They have the endurance bike covered with the Synapse. And they have the crit racer down with the CAAD series. Why mess up the light weight climbing bike in the range ?

The real key question for me is when will Cannondale make a u-turn and rework the EVO 3, so that it's visually half way pleasing again ? 2 years, 3 years ?

by Weenie


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