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Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:01 am
by Imaking20
Also false. Felt stiffer out of the saddle than my Evo HM.

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:13 am
by dudemanppl
Imaking20 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:14 pm
Y'know those people you see out shopping for groceries that are half put together - you look at them and wonder how they looked in a mirror and thought "yeah, this is good enough"?
Feeling personally attacked. Ti ISP smoothness doesn't correlate to drivetrain stiffness at all. You can eat cake with Ti.

BUT KEEP THE DOGMA PLEASE, the dude before you who had it has had it listed for like 6 months or something with no sale and now that its cut, no other prospective Dogma owner can ride it.

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:13 am
by Weenie

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:45 am
by KarlC
dudemanppl wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:13 am
Imaking20 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:14 pm
Y'know those people you see out shopping for groceries that are half put together - you look at them and wonder how they looked in a mirror and thought "yeah, this is good enough"?
Feeling personally attacked. Ti ISP smoothness doesn't correlate to drivetrain stiffness at all. You can eat cake with Ti.

BUT KEEP THE DOGMA PLEASE, the dude before you who had it has had it listed for like 6 months or something with no sale and now that its cut, no other prospective Dogma owner can ride it.
Older bikes are hard to sell, rim brake frames are getting harer to sell, ISP frames and old carbon with slamed forks can be really hard to sell.

We are all mosly in the same boat.

Looking forward to the rest of the shoot out reports.

.

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:25 pm
by KarlC
Updates? You must have got some testing done over the weekend ?

.

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:29 am
by tabl10s
Imaking20 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:14 pm
Getting back on track - the Mosaic is together! Of course I reviewed the geometry, which may be custom but that only amounts to a slightly more sloping TT, 5mm more HT and 72.8* HTA instead of stock 72.5*. I also think it's perfectly fair to compare one bike that wasn't custom made for me to two other bikes that weren't custom made for me. Dropping $6k for a frame has never sounded interesting to me and that opinion hasn't changed with the posession of the Mosaic.

I'll again stress this is currently an experiment and the bike is definitely not dressed as I'd have it ideally were it going to stay in the stable (which is TBD and the point of this thread). Y'know those people you see out shopping for groceries that are half put together - you look at them and wonder how they looked in a mirror and thought "yeah, this is good enough"? Well, that's sorta how I feel about the current aesthetic of the Mosaic. The black topper isn't ideal, nor is the blue stem or giant headset. But here we are.

Image

Saddle to bar drop is currently 20mm less than the Wilier (95mm vs 115mm) - which I'm back and forth about. I've gradually been riding a lower and lower front end over the past year and definitely feel comfortable doing so. However, some might recall I was in a car accident a couple years back and one of the two primary injuries was two bulging discs in my neck. After ~6 months of rehab I was mostly back to normal. My current job has been traveling quite a bit which means lots of hotels - which has started to stir some neck troubles over the last ~2 months. I don't think my low bike position is necessarily making it worse, but it'd be shortsighted to not at least consider that it may not be helping. If the Mosaic stays, it will end up with a Cane Creek AER lower and Slamset upper - which should have me sitting 10mm higher than the Wilier. In my head, that seems like a perfectly acceptable spot for a bike with the purpose of my "B" bike. Let's see if my vanity can agree with that concept :)
I thought the Slamset was "race-day only" thing?

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:31 am
by dudemanppl
Who says that? Cane Creek doesn't really make anything "race-day only".

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:34 pm
by oldturd
Imaking20 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:14 pm
If the Mosaic stays, it will end up with a Cane Creek AER lower and Slamset upper - which should have me sitting 10mm higher than the Wilier. In my head, that seems like a perfectly acceptable spot for a bike with the purpose of my "B" bike. Let's see if my vanity can agree with that concept :)
Your experience may differ but on my spooky, the slamset upper did NOT work with the Extralite -12 as it eventually hit the upper under load. There was maybe 1mm of clearance at most.

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:38 pm
by Imaking20
I was actually looking at pictures on Monday and wondering that exactly. It looks CLOSE

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:15 am
by Imaking20
When I started this thread I knew it was optimistic to think I'd have the time to carry it all out and report on it - and it was. Overly optimistic. Balancing home life and work travel while trying to maintain some semblance of fitness (with uncooperative weather to boot) is enough of a chore. Just the anxiety of not knowing which bikes were going to stay was tipping me over!

That said, I was able to get a decent back to back ride on the Mosaic and Dogma on one of the roads I'd intended. It was a 12ish mile loop near my house 1200' of cumulative climbing - most of which comes at the beginning with a couple mile climb. From there, the route undulates in the hills for a bit before heading back down on a fast descent that ALWAYS has a crosswind (this is actually the segment I described when talking about the extra speed on the Wilier). On the way home, I made sure to throw in a nice little gravel road for good measure. I set out on the Mosaic first - as I was pretty sure it was going to be the loser on the day. I looked for standout traits, whether positive or negative, and honestly there just weren't any. The bike was smooth pretty much everywhere, comfortably agile on descents, and composed on gravel (running Arenberg tires).

I got home, quickly swapped the wheels on to the Dogma and headed back out.

I made it two corners from my house and noticed the front if the bike just felt... Stiffer. Mind you, the bikes are even running the same stem! This sort of ended up being the story of the second lap. Sure, there is just slightly more "giddy up" when you get out of the saddle on the Dogma - but not enough that I feel like the Mosaic would affect any sort of performance result. Not at all. In my head, the Dogma has been one of the most comfortable bikes I've ridden - certainly among the plastic variants - but immediately following the Mosaic, it felt like a block of wood. I did NOT expect that. Similarly, there was nothing crazy that stood out when thinking about the comparison - even the comfort difference I'm talking about would be a stretch to call "significant" but I just enjoyed my time on the Mosaic more.

And for what it's worth, the lap times were only separated by 7 seconds!

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:38 am
by KarlC
Imaking20 wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:15 am
I just enjoyed my time on the Mosaic more.

And for what it's worth, the lap times were only separated by 7 seconds!
And yet your selling the Mosaic ?

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:20 pm
by Imaking20
Both actually. Dogma is pending locally.

Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:13 pm
by fogman
And is the pending local buyer of the Dogma a dentist?


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Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:09 am
by Imaking20
Well, with a buyer lined up for the Dogma I figured I could lay off the gas on selling the Mosaic and get better acquainted - and so I have! The wife and I took a trip over the Cascades for the weekend, unfortunately, our full day there was full of rain, so we spent that day exploring neighborhoods in the cage. Luck turned back in our favor Sunday morning though and we were able to sneak out to explore some fantastic roads - including a mix of asphalt, gravel, dirt and even some sand.

Before packing the bike up for the trip, I threw on the EE brakes from the Dogma, a -17* stem and a 5mm spacer to replicate what my fit would be on a Slamset (+2mm spacer to avoid the issue oldturd mentioned). The bike felt MUCH more natural for me with a little more drop and I was happy that the DA levers and EE braking combo felt better than I recall. I've tried 9100 brakes twice now and just do not care for them. They may have a lot of outright power - but I think they feel like you're squeezing against a 2x4. I'll take 10% more modulation over 20% more power every day. Luckily, I don't think the power advantage to 9100 is that significant (at all).

Anyway - the ride. Our little jaunt over the weekend was fantastic. We hit some roads I'd done before - but last time I was on a Venge. Needless to say, the roads seemed a lot smoother than I remembered!

Today I snuck out for a ride before more work travel. I was able to hit another one of the routes I'd mentioned in the OP. The course today starts with an extended version of the climb I compared the Mosaic and Dogma on, and then rides along a ridge for a bit before a really fun, gradual descent down the back of the range. The ridge is pretty mixed asphalt and you've typically got to pay attention so you don't get bounced off your line. I was about 3/4 across the ridge and thought to myself that I must be going slow because the bike just felt so calm - so I clicked for another gear and realized I was already in my 52/12. That surprised me. The Wilier goes down this section of road well (and is the bike that holds the KOM) but I was shocked at how uneventful it seemed on the Mosaic. No other bike I've ridden on this stretch, regardless of frame material, has given me that sensation. I swear this bike feels smoother every time I ride it.

The bike is still unlikely to stick around, just because I'm going to expect the fit and aesthetic needs to mesh better for a bike with such a price tag, but I'll enjoy the ride until the next right bike shows up :)

Re: Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:44 am
by tabl10s
dudemanppl wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:31 am
Who says that? Cane Creek doesn't really make anything "race-day only".
They did when I called them last year.