Imaking20's Bike Shootout: Wilier, Dogma and Mosaic

[dgasmd]

I'll admit it's a bit of a struggle going from perfect shifting to riding Campy - which is why I'd picked up another 9150 group to put on the Dogma.

No dedicated wheels. The wheels all swap between bikes without issue. All are running SRAM cassettes except the Nemesis which have a Campy FH

Interesting comment about campy not being the perfect shifter. I rose shimano for a single year and it was tuned properly. It shifted well and without issues. Outside of that single year, I’ve had campy for 20+ years and has simply being flawless the entire time. I do all my installs and tuning as of the last few years and will admit I’m mediocre to ok at best. Despite that handicap, all my groups (10, pre, and post 2015 11sp) work flawlessly. Even better is that stuff last forever, doesn’t require readjusting often if at all, and even when swapping cassettes and different wheels it all works just the same. Can only imagine what it’d feel if tuned by a pro with more patience than me.

Not trying to sway you either way. Enjoy the bike and ride them. In the end, it is all petty and small differences as they all work more than well enough!!!

[RyanH]

I think the comment about Campy not shifting well should have an asterisk next to it. Really, it should say that it doesn't shift well with an XG1190 cassette. I had the same issue when I last ran SR mech. It'd always slightly overshift. Using a Campy cassette fixed the issue immediately. It's not Campy's fault, it's people online that keep parroting that everything shifts fine with SRAM cassettes. Right now, I can't get the Max (9150) to shift through the 11-28 cassette without hesitating going down to the 16t and hesitating shifting from 13t to 14t. It shifted fine with 11-28.

[Imaking20]

It was a tongue in cheek response to the dig about "chitmano".

The SR mechanical feels very nice to shift and it's my favorite braking setup paired with EE brakes. But 9150 is in another league. The two bikes that stay will both wear Shimano.

[Calnago]

Normally I enjoy helping people with Campy setup issues, if that's the issue. But when I read comments about how their Campy stuff isn't working as they think it should, the first thing I do is to check out their components. Here we have third party cranks, rings and bottom bracket. I-links. Non Campy chain. Non Campy cassette. Ok... need I go on? So there ya go... a comment as to less than perfect operation given that little list holds zero weight, since it can hardly be called a "Campy drivetrain". It's a Frankendrive, so I'll just let those "my campy stuff doesn't work" comments rest with the owner.

In this case, however, having dealt with a similar Pinarello with a complete and compatible drive train, I came across a cable guide underneath the BB (proprietary to the frame) which was made of a hard rubber material (not delrin or nylon, but kind of a hardened rubber), and it behaved just like you'd expect... like hard rubber, creating huge drag on the bare shifter cables that were running over it (without any teflon tubing). So, I'd for sure make sure there is teflon tubing running through the bottom bracket guide as a minimum, with proper teflon or something where it exits the chainstay as well.

And for grins... here's a link to a post from a while ago asking why he couldn't get his indexing right on his Chorus... I kind of thought it was a troll post when I first read it, thus my only comment... "Seriously?"
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=156168&hilit=Seriously

[Imaking20]

Well, I'm not going to use ANY group in it's entirety which means, for me, the best shifting option is the one that can deal with the adversity

I've run full SR mech (even with a Record cassette!) It's nice. I'd still say 9100 performs better. But this isn't a group shootout (which may as well be a debate on religion) - it's a bike shootout.

Mosaic photos coming this morning.

[XCProMD]

I answered that post, but I hadn’t seen the Tacx pulleys and the Miche spacer!

[Calnago]

Well, I'm not going to use ANY group in it's entirety which means, for me, the best shifting option is the one that can deal with the adversity

Mosaic photos coming this morning.

Yeah, groups aren't really made to deal with adversity... there'd have to be a whole lotta slop built in for that to work and even then the best you could hope to achieve would be sloppy. You should throw some new AXS stuff in there too if you like adversity.

Do you have a geo chart for that Mosaic? There's no way I'd be buying a custom frame built for someone else, or any frame for that matter, without being able to really go over the geometry first. At a glance, it looked a little on the "not normal" side.

[pdlpsher1]

When I was using the XG1190 I got the impression that the cogs are slightly thicker than the ones on the Shimano cassette, although I never measured it with a caliper. Since Sram’s cassettes are more expensive to make perhaps they are designed that way, but with a small compromise in shifting qualities.

Right now I’m running a 11-32 and the only options for me are the XG1190 or the Ultegra. I chose the Ultegra. Yes, it’s a brick. But the XG now costs $250 whereas my Ultegra costs only $68. When I last bought my XG a couple years ago it was $200. Now the new AXS costs, cough, $350.


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[wheelsONfire]

Running Etap, both wheelsets have Shimano cassettes, though i have a new XG-1190 boxed. I just didn't see the need to start a new cassette when the two Shima cassettes work great. Reading this, i feel the itch

[AZR3]

So is this about frames or groupsets?

[romanmoser]

frameset(s)

[Imaking20]

Getting back on track - the Mosaic is together! Of course I reviewed the geometry, which may be custom but that only amounts to a slightly more sloping TT, 5mm more HT and 72.8* HTA instead of stock 72.5*. I also think it's perfectly fair to compare one bike that wasn't custom made for me to two other bikes that weren't custom made for me. Dropping $6k for a frame has never sounded interesting to me and that opinion hasn't changed with the posession of the Mosaic.

I'll again stress this is currently an experiment and the bike is definitely not dressed as I'd have it ideally were it going to stay in the stable (which is TBD and the point of this thread). Y'know those people you see out shopping for groceries that are half put together - you look at them and wonder how they looked in a mirror and thought "yeah, this is good enough"? Well, that's sorta how I feel about the current aesthetic of the Mosaic. The black topper isn't ideal, nor is the blue stem or giant headset. But here we are.



Saddle to bar drop is currently 20mm less than the Wilier (95mm vs 115mm) - which I'm back and forth about. I've gradually been riding a lower and lower front end over the past year and definitely feel comfortable doing so. However, some might recall I was in a car accident a couple years back and one of the two primary injuries was two bulging discs in my neck. After ~6 months of rehab I was mostly back to normal. My current job has been traveling quite a bit which means lots of hotels - which has started to stir some neck troubles over the last ~2 months. I don't think my low bike position is necessarily making it worse, but it'd be shortsighted to not at least consider that it may not be helping. If the Mosaic stays, it will end up with a Cane Creek AER lower and Slamset upper - which should have me sitting 10mm higher than the Wilier. In my head, that seems like a perfectly acceptable spot for a bike with the purpose of my "B" bike. Let's see if my vanity can agree with that concept

[AZR3]

Just based on visual appearance, even though its not fully built as youd like it, I'm loving the Mosaic! That ISP just looks so damn cool

[Imaking20]

Well, the suspicions of the seat mast being harsh can be laid to rest. Got in a short, uneventful ride. Nothing crazy to note but it feels more compliant than the T2 was. And I'm reminded how titanium just deals with "buzz" differently than carbon.

[ChiZ01]

Well, the suspicions of the seat mast being harsh can be laid to rest. Got in a short, uneventful ride. Nothing crazy to note but it feels more compliant than the T2 was. And I'm reminded how titanium just deals with "buzz" differently than carbon.

if that's the case it will feel like a noodle when you put power through it, it is always a balance