anybody go to 28mm tires, and NOT like the switch?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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zefs
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:40 pm

by zefs

It's probably worth trying the 28's since it's a fast tire and you loose less compared to other tires but it's still it's a racing tire. Maybe they should release a version with improved puncture protection and mileage too for more all-round riding.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

C36 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:21 am

So the wider tires are :
- heavier,
- sluggish
- don’t roll better at equivalent “comfort pressure”
- have more aero drag...
+ They do have more grip

In case it was needed, it finished convincing me to remain on 23 / 25mm depending of the wheels.
Out of curiosity, what are the largest tires you can fit on the bike that you prefer 23/25?

As we see more and more data, the differences in power consumption between bigger and smaller tires, and softer and harder tires appears to be quite small. It comes down to the application - what road quality, and time on the bike. If you are on your bike all day, it doesn't matter how good the roads are, big and soft is so nice.

Another application issue is whether one is racing or not. If one is just out training, why wouldn't one choose bigger tires at lower pressures. Worried about keeping up with your buddies who show up to group rides with 80mm deep wheels, skinsuits, and aero helmets? Man up, do some interval training, and drop their sorry asses on your vintage steel frame with fenders and 30mm rubber. :P
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


TheRich
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by TheRich

Training vs equipment isn't a one or the other choice...both are possible and even preferred.

cunn1n9
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

I spent years of riding 23mm and then 25mm in the last 6 months. (I was a sceptic). This was all done on Zipp 303 and 404 with an internal width of 17mm (17.25mm I think to be precise). My tyre of choice was Vitoria Corsa open tubular.

The 25mm were slightly more comfortable as I ran them at 90psi front and 95psi back vs 95/100 on the 23mm.

I just picked up a disc brake road bike (Factor O2) and tried 28mm tubeless Schwable Pro Ones on Zipp 303 NSW disc wheels. I set pressure to 80psi front and 85psi back. I am a convert. Faster for sure over chip seal and anything not smooth tarmac. No slower climbing. Smoother - you can just blast over cracks etc that before you braced for impact and took the power off. Better grip - you can just rip descents as the grip level is so much higher.

I have no science but I know what my sensations feel and I reckon that’s all that matters.


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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

cunn1n9 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:51 pm
I just picked up a disc brake road bike (Factor O2) and tried 28mm tubeless Schwable Pro Ones on Zipp 303 NSW disc wheels. I set pressure to 80psi front and 85psi back. I am a convert. Faster for sure over chip seal and anything not smooth tarmac. No slower climbing. Smoother - you can just blast over cracks etc that before you braced for impact and took the power off. Better grip - you can just rip descents as the grip level is so much higher.

I have no science but I know what my sensations feel and I reckon that’s all that matters.
Those Zipps are 19mm internal IIRC. If you can put a caliper on the tires you might find you are close to 30mm in diameter. If that is so, and you are less then 180 pounds, you should try going down to the 75 psi range. I am running 28mm Mavic Yksions which are a smaller tire than the Schwalbe on 21mm internal rims. The tires net out around 29mm, and I have been regularely riding at 65psi and as low as 60 psi. I weigh 170 pounds, and I can't say that I have found any downside at the lower pressures. Comfort and traction is of course excellent (however not as good as good cotton tires with latex tubes - tubeless tire construction is more rigid).
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

cunn1n9
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:24 am

by cunn1n9

Mr.Gib wrote:
cunn1n9 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:51 pm
I just picked up a disc brake road bike (Factor O2) and tried 28mm tubeless Schwable Pro Ones on Zipp 303 NSW disc wheels. I set pressure to 80psi front and 85psi back. I am a convert. Faster for sure over chip seal and anything not smooth tarmac. No slower climbing. Smoother - you can just blast over cracks etc that before you braced for impact and took the power off. Better grip - you can just rip descents as the grip level is so much higher.

I have no science but I know what my sensations feel and I reckon that’s all that matters.
Those Zipps are 19mm internal IIRC. If you can put a caliper on the tires you might find you are close to 30mm in diameter. If that is so, and you are less then 180 pounds, you should try going down to the 75 psi range. I am running 28mm Mavic Yksions which are a smaller tire than the Schwalbe on 21mm internal rims. The tires net out around 29mm, and I have been regularely riding at 65psi and as low as 60 psi. I weigh 170 pounds, and I can't say that I have found any downside at the lower pressures. Comfort and traction is of course excellent (however not as good as good cotton tires with latex tubes - tubeless tire construction is more rigid).

The Zipp 303 NSW Tubeless are 21mm internal I think. The 28mm tyre blows up to 30mm. I weight 75kg (don’t know what that is is pounds). I will experiment with pressure but so far I am seeing zero downside and plenty of upside. If Vittoria make a Corsa tubeless I’ll try that as I love their tyres.


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NickJHP
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by NickJHP

Most of my riding for the past six months or so (the great majority of it on sealed roads) has been on an Open U.P.P.E.R. that I built up. I've been running Compass Bon Jon Pass 35mm ultralight on it, setup tubeless, and out on bunch training rides I really can't notice that the fatter tyres are a handicap. What I certainly can notice is that over our normal roads here, which have not particularly smooth tar and stones surfaces, the ride is far less wearing than on other bikes I have using 25mm tyres. At around 65kg, I run the 25s at 70psi front 90psi rear, and the 35s at 40psi front 60psi rear. I also notice that the fatter tyres are far better on high speed sweeping descents over these uneven surface roads - they still grip the road without any fuss at the point where the skinny tyres at higher psi at starting to step out over the bumps when cornering.

I notice that, according to Velonews, the majority of the teams at the Tour of Flanders were running 28mm...

bilwit
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by bilwit

28mm (measured) is definitely more comfortable and feel great when on rough road.. but also makes me feel like I'm driving a bus in comparison to "skinny" tire. 25mm (measured) is the sweetspot for me

RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

Yeah, i am only 130lbs with a 13lbs bike, so 23-25c is plenty for me. It is the big guys that see the most benefits from the wider tires, bucause physics needs more help when they hit a bump.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

cunn1n9 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:54 pm
Mr.Gib wrote:
cunn1n9 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:51 pm
I just picked up a disc brake road bike (Factor O2) and tried 28mm tubeless Schwable Pro Ones on Zipp 303 NSW disc wheels. I set pressure to 80psi front and 85psi back. I am a convert. Faster for sure over chip seal and anything not smooth tarmac. No slower climbing. Smoother - you can just blast over cracks etc that before you braced for impact and took the power off. Better grip - you can just rip descents as the grip level is so much higher.

I have no science but I know what my sensations feel and I reckon that’s all that matters.
Those Zipps are 19mm internal IIRC. If you can put a caliper on the tires you might find you are close to 30mm in diameter. If that is so, and you are less then 180 pounds, you should try going down to the 75 psi range. I am running 28mm Mavic Yksions which are a smaller tire than the Schwalbe on 21mm internal rims. The tires net out around 29mm, and I have been regularely riding at 65psi and as low as 60 psi. I weigh 170 pounds, and I can't say that I have found any downside at the lower pressures. Comfort and traction is of course excellent (however not as good as good cotton tires with latex tubes - tubeless tire construction is more rigid).
The Zipp 303 NSW Tubeless are 21mm internal I think. The 28mm tyre blows up to 30mm. I weight 75kg (don’t know what that is is pounds). I will experiment with pressure but so far I am seeing zero downside and plenty of upside. If Vittoria make a Corsa tubeless I’ll try that as I love their tyres.
21mm internal - that's perfect. And 75kg is 165lbs. Definitely give 65psi at try. My Pro One's on 21mm were huge - over 30mm.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

bilwit wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:00 am
28mm (measured) is definitely more comfortable and feel great when on rough road.. but also makes me feel like I'm driving a bus in comparison to "skinny" tire. 25mm (measured) is the sweetspot for me
Can you be more specific?

Does the steering feel heavier? Does a big soft tire just feel vague because there is less sense of the road surface? Technically, a taller tire will increase trail which will result in steering that is more responsive to bike lean, so in a sense the bike will steer more with less lean - the opposite of the "bus" feeling. Of course the difference is so small it shouldn't be noticeable. The contact patch is larger at lower pressures, so perhaps that is what causes the more sluggish feel. Just harder to turn the bars. But once in motion that should be a non-issue.

I do notice a difference in handling but it's hard to describe. Like the bike is less darty with bigger tires, but not because there is less response to steering inputs. Rather it's more as if larger softer tire kicks back against road imperfections much less when I am cornering. Everything just gets dulled and neutralized - which is sort of the goal.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Bit if it's not rattling my teeth out I'm not going fast is generally the only change in sensation people relate to bigger, within reason, rubber at the correct pressure.

I was a sceptic but have done enough kms on both on the exact same sections of road to be able to confidently say that wider is as fast or faster for most mortals.

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zefs
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by zefs

When I was testing 25 vs 28 GP4000s2 I felt they were sluggish but I was testing 80 psi for 25 vs 60 psi for 28. In the bicyclerollingresistance test it is stated: "We've adjusted all air pressures to values that provide the same comfort level (4.5 mm tire drop)" - which is 6psi difference for 25 to 28

That means if you actually want to gain comfort you need to go lower in air pressure and the wider tires will then be slower if I am understanding it right. But probably the difference won't be much if they are equal at 6 psi less.

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willmac
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Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:33 am

by willmac

NickJHP wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:15 am
Most of my riding for the past six months or so (the great majority of it on sealed roads) has been on an Open U.P.P.E.R. that I built up. I've been running Compass Bon Jon Pass 35mm ultralight on it, setup tubeless, and out on bunch training rides I really can't notice that the fatter tyres are a handicap. What I certainly can notice is that over our normal roads here, which have not particularly smooth tar and stones surfaces, the ride is far less wearing than on other bikes I have using 25mm tyres. At around 65kg, I run the 25s at 70psi front 90psi rear, and the 35s at 40psi front 60psi rear. I also notice that the fatter tyres are far better on high speed sweeping descents over these uneven surface roads - they still grip the road without any fuss at the point where the skinny tyres at higher psi at starting to step out over the bumps when cornering.

I notice that, according to Velonews, the majority of the teams at the Tour of Flanders were running 28mm...
That may be the case but a 28 tubular actually measures 28mm. Most 700x25mm clinchers actually measure closer to 27/28mm on wider internal rims so your usual 25mm tire is about the same as what the pros have. Saying that, the new gp5000’s seem designed around wider internals. My 25’s measure 25 on 19mm internal rims

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Good to know. I've only seen people saying Conti bulbs out like 10%. As i run tubular only, i have noted several tires are even a tiny bit smaller than spec.
Wonder if i rode clincher, that would mean i should use 23mm tires to get actual 25mm width!?

BTW, NSW is 19mm internally not 21mm.
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