Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
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aeroisnteverything
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

schlafen wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:49 am
AXS is wireless, that alone levels it out for me, and others it seems.
Pray tell, what is so magical about wireless components on bike? I get the ease of installation, but installation is an event that happens approximately once in a lifetime of the bike. Maybe twice if you change your groupset but keep the frame. Wireless is conceptually fantastic when you are mobile and when you need to constantly move one component from another. But I am not looking for a TV or a fridge that gets power wirelessly - because it's always in the same spot. I am also not looking for a wireless protocol for a car steering wheel to communicate with the wheels, for the same reason.

On a bike, the components are fixed into place, permanently. So why go wireless? I am not saying it's inferior to wired, but on the technical side there are both pros and cons to it, and it's very far from being clearly superior. Plus there are still brake cables - so it's not like you got rid of cabling completely.

Now, if wireless was lighter, or more compact, or enabled better aestetics, or better performance, I'd be all for it. But SRAM has not produced any of that. Literally the only claim of superiority it has over Shimano is the comparatively easy-breezy installation. Oh, and 12 speeds with the advent of AXS. But I am sure Shimano's next one will have more than 11 speeds, whether we need/want it or not.

by Weenie


schlafen
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm

by schlafen

You answered your own question: it's magic.

The same reason you don't log around a rotor phone: convenience, progress, entertainment, you name it.
I'm sure a phone call made with a rotor phone now would be perfectly acceptable but who would settle for that with the choice available.

I ride mech dura ace at the moment and don't want to upgrade cables for more expensive cables, feels like moving backwards not forward.

I have already asked for feedback in the AXS thread but most of the replies have been assumptions and internet research (aka google) answerswith a couple of people actually owning and using axs.

As a result I purchased the groupset and waiting for it to be delivered now.

You are assuming that I only own 1 bike.

Also sram just opened the door to own multiple frames for multiple things but only 1 groupset, with minor variations like cassettes, chainrings, wheels, now that the groupset is so easy to swap around...
Looks like a mtb rear derailleur can be paired as well.

I am aware that the mechanics involved will not be dura ace quality, old sram stuff was sub par to say the least, but hey, I can't knock it till I try it.

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aeroisnteverything
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

schlafen wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 pm
You answered your own question: it's magic.

The same reason you don't log around a rotor phone: convenience, progress, entertainment, you name it.
I'm sure a phone call made with a rotor phone now would be perfectly acceptable but who would settle for that with the choice available.
...
The rotary phone is a totally wrong analogy. I am not comparing SRAM etap to mechanical shifting. I am comparing it to Di2. What is the difference in function that you notice when riding, apart from SRAM being slower and worse shifting FD?

You are assuming that I only own 1 bike.

Also sram just opened the door to own multiple frames for multiple things but only 1 groupset, with minor variations like cassettes, chainrings, wheels, now that the groupset is so easy to swap around...
Looks like a mtb rear derailleur can be paired as well.
Are you seriously going to move components from one bike to another? Which components? Shifters, which you need to reconnect to hydro brake lines, as well as potentially requiring you to unwrap the bar tape? FD or RD, which requires also taking off the chain? Really? I tend to think this sort of hot-swapping is only possible with wheels and saddles, but maybe I am not thinking out of the box enough.

zinedrei
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:36 am

by zinedrei

hmm so this has turned into a wireless shifter debate then.

can we add the numerous failures of shimano cranks? :D

kidding aside, most probably, the next new road iteration for shimano will have 12 speed.
i just hope it will not require a new hub as well

XCProMD
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by XCProMD

Of course it will


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wheelsONfire
Posts: 2949
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

aeroisnteverything wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:31 pm
schlafen wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 pm
You answered your own question: it's magic.

The same reason you don't log around a rotor phone: convenience, progress, entertainment, you name it.
I'm sure a phone call made with a rotor phone now would be perfectly acceptable but who would settle for that with the choice available.
...
The rotary phone is a totally wrong analogy. I am not comparing SRAM etap to mechanical shifting. I am comparing it to Di2. What is the difference in function that you notice when riding, apart from SRAM being slower and worse shifting FD?

You are assuming that I only own 1 bike.

Also sram just opened the door to own multiple frames for multiple things but only 1 groupset, with minor variations like cassettes, chainrings, wheels, now that the groupset is so easy to swap around...
Looks like a mtb rear derailleur can be paired as well.
Are you seriously going to move components from one bike to another? Which components? Shifters, which you need to reconnect to hydro brake lines, as well as potentially requiring you to unwrap the bar tape? FD or RD, which requires also taking off the chain? Really? I tend to think this sort of hot-swapping is only possible with wheels and saddles, but maybe I am not thinking out of the box enough.
If you (like me) ever have a problem with Di2 and Shimano says you need to change the cables and possibly the junction box around the BB region, then you'll not be to keen on Di2 again. With Etap (AXS) you'd atleast know if one component doesn't play, you don't need to go through the bike again and again.

Sram slow shifting? That's ridiculous!
Compare Etap (said to be slower than AXS) to any mechanical and it's not slower.
Only gripe you'd ever have with Etap is the chain can jump over big chainring.
I'll admit that is annoying....
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

Alfus
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:34 pm

by Alfus

Ok, this is for new dura ace, no to talk about Etap o AXS

aeroisnteverything
Posts: 191
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:43 pm

by aeroisnteverything

zinedrei wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:44 pm
hmm so this has turned into a wireless shifter debate then.

can we add the numerous failures of shimano cranks? :D

kidding aside, most probably, the next new road iteration for shimano will have 12 speed.
i just hope it will not require a new hub as well
New hub is a given, isn't it - micro spline.

I am kinda hoping that if they increase the number of cogs, they will go straight to 13, and enable a proper road 1x for those who want it, and at least enable some weight saving (or avoid a weight penalty), even at the cost of suboptimal chain lines. Now, if they also come up with some interesting ideas for reducing that chainline problem at the same time, all the merrier.

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Alexbn921
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

New hubs are 100%.
12 speed or it's dead in the water and they will lose even more market share to Sram. Even if it's announced this year is will be at least 2021 before it's available for purchase.

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Noctiluxx
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by Noctiluxx

Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:58 pm
New hubs are 100%.
12 speed or it's dead in the water and they will lose even more market share to Sram. Even if it's announced this year is will be at least 2021 before it's available for purchase.
Whatever market share they lose to SRAM, they will get it back during the numerous future SRAM recalls. :mrgreen:
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SilentDrone
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

by SilentDrone

Isn’t it logical that new DA will have the same features that Shimano “recently” pushed out on its new XTR: 12 speed, hyperglide plus for improved shifting, and microspline hub?

It took them a long time to actually release the new XTR. Lots of production problems. I expect they won’t repeat that when new DA is released. And I expect they won’t deviate very far feature-wise from what we see on XTR.


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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

Noctiluxx wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:11 pm
Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:58 pm
New hubs are 100%.
12 speed or it's dead in the water and they will lose even more market share to Sram. Even if it's announced this year is will be at least 2021 before it's available for purchase.
Whatever market share they lose to SRAM, they will get it back during the numerous future SRAM recalls. :mrgreen:
Just like on mountain bikes. :mrgreen: It doesn't matter if Shimano has better build quility when they don't have a competing product.

95% or higher of all high-end bikes have Sram on them. Compare that to 10 years ago when Shimano was 95%.

Imaking20
Posts: 2027
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by Imaking20

^source for those numbers?
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Belshazzar
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 9:55 pm

by Belshazzar

Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:47 pm
Noctiluxx wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:11 pm
Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:58 pm
New hubs are 100%.
12 speed or it's dead in the water and they will lose even more market share to Sram. Even if it's announced this year is will be at least 2021 before it's available for purchase.
Whatever market share they lose to SRAM, they will get it back during the numerous future SRAM recalls. :mrgreen:
Just like on mountain bikes. :mrgreen: It doesn't matter if Shimano has better build quility when they don't have a competing product.

95% or higher of all high-end bikes have Sram on them. Compare that to 10 years ago when Shimano was 95%.
BS. 10 years ago there were a lot of pro tour teams on SRAM 10 speed. They learned their lesson. Now there are only 2. Anyone who says AXS shifts as well or as quickly as Di2 either hasn't used Di2, or is trying to rationalize their purchase of a $3000 groupset that shifts less well than its mechanical counterpart. Not even close to 95% of the bikes we sell have AXS on them. Right now it's probably 60% Di2, 40% AXS, and 10% Campy. The SRAM numbers are only that high because of the novelty of a new 12sp groupset. I expect those numbers to go down once the early adopters get their fix.

by Weenie


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Alexbn921
Posts: 229
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by Alexbn921

Imaking20 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:51 pm
^source for those numbers?
Every single high-end complete mountain bike Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Specialized...has sold in the last 2 years has had sram eagle on it. Walk into any bike shop and look at the bikes available.

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