Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
JMeinholdt
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:31 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

DCbiker wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:02 pm
Question on backwards compatibility: is there a reason shimano would want to provide this? I understand we all want them to, but the new group may or may not include some wireless bits, a new Powermeter crank, a new caliper design?

I'm not sure why they would want to make that backwards comparable. Has shimano ever done so for groups across speeds?

7900 was 10sp, 9000 was compatable w 9100 because both 11 sp.
Increased adoption/increased market share is one thought. But then again, only Shimano knows the cost/benefit analysis of this.

To answer your question, I think the 1st gen DA Di2 had an oddball system, but 6770 Ultegra 10 speed shifters can be used with 11 speed derailleurs...
Wilier Cento10AIR Rim Brake - Ultegra Di2
BMC GF02 - Ultegra R8000 - Commuter/Trainer

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by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6057
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

JMeinholdt wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:55 pm

Please educate me. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong. Googling SRAM battery patent got me here.

Backsearch *all* of the electromechanical derailleur patents granted to SRAM. There’s like a half dozen of them dating back to 2012 and the oldest ones are more descriptive.

Aeo
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 2:06 am

by Aeo

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
Going from 11-speed to 12-speed will be a costly upgrade, since you'll need to replace the entire drivetrain.
Could be as easy as new cassette, chain, and a firmware upgrade

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Alexbn921
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

[/quote]
Could be as easy as new cassette, chain, and a firmware upgrade
[/quote]
And Crankset/chainrings and freehub

But this is just wishful thinking. No way it will be backwards compatable.

ipenguinking
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:03 am
Could be as easy as new cassette, chain, and a firmware upgrade
[/quote]
And Crankset/chainrings and freehub

But this is just wishful thinking. No way it will be backwards compatable.
[/quote]
Backward compatible isn't Shimano's best interest. The company wants everyone to buy the whole group plus new wheelset.

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

ipenguinking wrote:
Alexbn921 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:03 am
Could be as easy as new cassette, chain, and a firmware upgrade

And Crankset/chainrings and freehub

But this is just wishful thinking. No way it will be backwards compatable.

Backward compatible isn't Shimano's best interest. The company wants everyone to buy the whole group plus new wheelset.

So do SRAM and Campagnolo.

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petromyzon
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
Going from 11-speed to 12-speed will be a costly upgrade, since you'll need to replace the entire drivetrain. However I expect Shimano will allow the use of certain existing Di2 wires that's already installed in the frame. The same for the satellite chimbing/sprint shifters. Whether the battery will be compatible is to be seen. We already know that Microspline is out so Shimano is trying to keep its tradition of backwards compatibility.
How do we "know" Microspline is out? I think it would give them an advantage over SRAM to be compatible with existing wheels but I doubt it is guaranteed.

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corky
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

adilosnave wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:10 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 pm
JMeinholdt wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:21 pm

Just to be clear, you're referring to this wording: 2) The rear derailleur of claim 1, wherein the power source is disposed on or in the base member. Correct?

Because you do realize that in that same application, literally 5 lines below, is this: 7) The rear derailleur of claim 6, wherein the motor is disposed on or in the base member.

Now, please tell me how Shimano, Campagnolo, or FSA can create an electronic rear derailleur without a motor in it, since SRAM patented it.

Patents are allowed to describe unprotected prior art. Motorized derailleurs are very, very old. I feel like I'm talking to an infant.

Also this isn't the patent description I've seen before. The one we're referencing was very specific in its wording regarding batteries mounted to a "structural member" of the derailleur.
Hey, no offense or anything to TobinHates You, but why do you have to be such a phooking d*ck on here? you sure think very highly of yourself.
He's been doing it for ages and no doubt will in the future..... there's always one....best just to ignore.

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am

by icantaffordcycling

Dang. Speculation over some friggin bike parts and all the boomers loose their shit.
I love weight weenies.

BdaGhisallo
Posts: 2422
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

petromyzon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 am
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
Going from 11-speed to 12-speed will be a costly upgrade, since you'll need to replace the entire drivetrain. However I expect Shimano will allow the use of certain existing Di2 wires that's already installed in the frame. The same for the satellite chimbing/sprint shifters. Whether the battery will be compatible is to be seen. We already know that Microspline is out so Shimano is trying to keep its tradition of backwards compatibility.
How do we "know" Microspline is out? I think it would give them an advantage over SRAM to be compatible with existing wheels but I doubt it is guaranteed.
If history is any guide, Shimano will resist employing a new freehub standard if the new DA is 12spd. They held on to the same freehub body dimensions right from 8sp to 10sp and only modified it slightly for 11sp when there was no other way to get the 11 cogs in there. I think they surely did this to prevent cyclists having to upgrade their wheelsets everytime Shimano increased the cog count. The current freehub body has only been there for 11sp so, even though Microspline is out there on the MTB side and looks a great innovation, I think they'll probably lean toward sticking with the current freehub.

I know that I am unlikely to jump too quickly on any new DA, being quite content with 9050 DI2, but if there is a new freehub standard I doubt I'll make the move at all. I am sure I am not alone in that.

Ritxis
Posts: 508
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

BdaGhisallo wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:04 am
petromyzon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 am
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
Going from 11-speed to 12-speed will be a costly upgrade, since you'll need to replace the entire drivetrain. However I expect Shimano will allow the use of certain existing Di2 wires that's already installed in the frame. The same for the satellite chimbing/sprint shifters. Whether the battery will be compatible is to be seen. We already know that Microspline is out so Shimano is trying to keep its tradition of backwards compatibility.
How do we "know" Microspline is out? I think it would give them an advantage over SRAM to be compatible with existing wheels but I doubt it is guaranteed.
If history is any guide, Shimano will resist employing a new freehub standard if the new DA is 12spd. They held on to the same freehub body dimensions right from 8sp to 10sp and only modified it slightly for 11sp when there was no other way to get the 11 cogs in there. I think they surely did this to prevent cyclists having to upgrade their wheelsets everytime Shimano increased the cog count. The current freehub body has only been there for 11sp so, even though Microspline is out there on the MTB side and looks a great innovation, I think they'll probably lean toward sticking with the current freehub.

I know that I am unlikely to jump too quickly on any new DA, being quite content with 9050 DI2, but if there is a new freehub standard I doubt I'll make the move at all. I am sure I am not alone in that.
in a patent published today (e-bike) a 12 speed cassette is seen on an HG hub
hg.png
hub2.png

FactoryMatt
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

^^this is good news. 10T cogs on the road are not the best use of 12 speeds, and thus microspline would be an unnecessary migration.

hoping they stick with 11T max and wired or semi-wired shifters.

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pdlpsher1
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

It's possible that Shimano is looking ahead and recognizing that going from 12-speed to 13-speed will require a totally new freehub design, one that is different from Microspline. If they can fit 12 cogs on the existing freehub then it makes zero sense to go with Microspline. We'll probably see a new freehub design when they go to 13-speed on the road.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 6057
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:23 pm
It's possible that Shimano is looking ahead and recognizing that going from 12-speed to 13-speed will require a totally new freehub design, one that is different from Microspline. If they can fit 12 cogs on the existing freehub then it makes zero sense to go with Microspline. We'll probably see a new freehub design when they go to 13-speed on the road.

1) My hunch is we will never see x13 from the three major players. They will go straight from 1x12|2x12 to 1x14.
2) That won't require a freehub redesign because the first couple of cogs will undoubtedly be large enough to hang over the spokes.

FactoryMatt
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:35 am

by FactoryMatt

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:53 pm
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:23 pm
It's possible that Shimano is looking ahead and recognizing that going from 12-speed to 13-speed will require a totally new freehub design, one that is different from Microspline. If they can fit 12 cogs on the existing freehub then it makes zero sense to go with Microspline. We'll probably see a new freehub design when they go to 13-speed on the road.

1) My hunch is we will never see x13 from the three major players. They will go straight from 1x12|2x12 to 1x14.
2) That won't require a freehub redesign because the first couple of cogs will undoubtedly be large enough to hang over the spokes.
tighter gaps are more valuable than range on the road..unless you're a sram acolyte. even a 40t would be pushing it. sub 1:1, that's alot of torque to be putting into a 24h cx-ray rear wheel.

by Weenie


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