Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

Moderator: robbosmans

milanv
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

Yes, very funny posts within this topic...

Hexsense
Posts: 2125
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.

by Weenie


User avatar
kaptanpedal
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:10 pm

by kaptanpedal

Hexsense wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.
He has a point.
I am using red22 and has 36-28 as smallest gear. I will not cough up euros to get a longer mech and a new casette but I am running out of gears on tough days or at steep sections. Sometimes I am surprised to realize that I am already at 28. And all this is despite riding long alpine climbs ~5w. My ideal climbing cadance is 80 and it is totally reasonable. It is not like I try to froom at 110 rpm. Cannot imagine using this stupid gearing when I am not fit anymore.
It is even worse in mtb side. Only reasonable gearing is 1x with 12 gears and in order to be competitive you need to be able to ride at all gears from 50 to 120 rpm.
addicted to Tandem Touring, Hill Climbs and MTB Marathons
Strava: https://www.strava.com/athletes/2000993
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdMssh ... hb1PvwWahw

Minirac
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:13 pm

by Minirac

Hexsense wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.
lol. pros are using 53/39 an up. and 11-30 cassette.

Hexsense
Posts: 2125
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am

by Hexsense

Minirac wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.
lol. pros are using 53/39 an up. and 11-30 cassette.
Assume that to be true. Assuming every pro use 39t small ring and 11-30 with no one use 36t or 34t small ring and 11-32 and
I'll even make your argument stronger by assuming pro don't use the last cog of 11-30 cassette, so they only use up to 27t,
Then half the gear of 39/27 still don't exist...
39/27 = 1.44 gear ratio.
rider with only 50% of their power to weight would require 1.44/2 = 0.72 gear ratio.
if 34t is the small ring, we need 47t rear cog to get that gear (34/47 = 0.72).
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed May 26, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

pmprego
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

Minirac wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.
lol. pros are using 53/39 an up. and 11-30 cassette.
what are you saying?? You have several videos showcasing pro's bikes with them using 36 and the smaller ring. You have downsett saying that he uses a 34 on his training bike and just doesn't do it on the race bike because he can't then use the 53 which is helpful while on the flat (because yes... even zoncolan stage has big flat parts).

You could just see bernal today grinding big time. In this respect, SRAM is doing a way better job of serving those who give them profits.

tjvirden
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:21 pm

by tjvirden

SRAM have been doing much to cater to their (potential) clients - and have been pulling in sales & profits as a result; that's just fine.

However, in fairness to Shimano it's worth pointing out that Dura Ace 7800 offered a triple chainset option, with a 12-27 cassette no less!
I think we can assume that they stopped offering a triple at Dura Ace level (for 7900 on) because anyone who used one was mocked, since "it wasn't pro", and thus sales were tiny. Little did the professionals know how silly they were being (though back then their easier gear was EPO).

What Shimano did do for Dura Ace 7900 was offer a compact (50-34) chainset, with an 11-28 cassette, - but because "it wasn't pro" anyone who used one....etc etc.

So a combination of Pro's who simply looked to PEDs, and the moronic "cycling press", made it really tough for everyone else to get the equipment they needed.

As has been pointed out plenty of times, many recreational riders still like to imagine that they're "fast riders", and so they need Pro gearing; ignoring the fact that, at long last, pros are having to think hard about maximum performance which means things like small gears when riding up mountains.

Shimano have actually been trying; they're getting there slowly, in spite of all the barriers. After all, when we eventually see R9200, we all now expect to see a low gear of 34-34! That's progress.

milanv
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

Minirac wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:42 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
plrww wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 1:06 pm
I really think manufacturers should consider us mere mortal enthusiasts more with their gear selections. My power to weight ratio is about 50% of pros and even they use 36-32 gearing on steep climbs on grand tours. I'm a grinder and like it a lot, but spinning (is 70 cadence spinning?) is the way to go on long climbs.
That's some mind boggling stats.
Pros use 36/32 gear. We have 50% power to weight ratio of the pro, so if we want to spin the same cadence up the same climb (at 50% speed), there is no gear available for us.
Sometime we might have to accept that there are some mountains that we can't ride up with insufficient power.
lol. pros are using 53/39 an up. and 11-30 cassette.
E. g. olympic champion GVA...

User avatar
Dov
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:45 pm
Location: London

by Dov

This might provide some indicatipn of when launch is happening?
Dear Users of Pioneer Cycle Sports Products:
*This email is sent to all registered users of the Web service (Cyclo-Sphere). Due to the important content, we will also send it to those who do not wish to deliver it. note that.

On February 4, 2020, Pioneer Corporation announced that it had signed an agreement to transfer certain assets of the Pioneer Cycle Sports business to Shimano Inc. Now, we would like to inform you that the Cyclo-Sphere web service will be terminated and users in eligible regions will be transferred to a new web service operated by Shimano.

Current users of the Cyclo-Sphere service who live in regions where Shimano's new web service, which is due to be launched at the end of June 2021, is available will be able to use it with ride data logged in Cyclo-Sphere by taking procedures to transfer such data to the new service prior to the termination of Cyclo-Sphere.

◆ Current transfer schedule (subject to change)
--Mid-June, 2021 (exact date to be announced later): Cyclo-Sphere service terminated
--End of June 2021: Launch of Shimano's new web service

* If you wish to use any services other than Shimano's new web service, please download your workout data before the Cyclo-Sphere service terminates. The exact date will be provided in a later announcement. The downloaded FIT file may be used with other services.
(Please ask the provider of your desired service what file formats they support.)

After the Cyclo-Sphere service ends, you will no longer be able to download your data.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01.

Shimano's new web service will be different than Cyclo-Sphere. Please read and understand the following and take the necessary steps before the Cyclo-Sphere service terminates.
1. Transfer from Cyclo-Sphere to Shimano's new web service
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... php#anc_01

2. Availability of Shimano‘s new web service
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... php#anc_02

For service requests or inquiries for your Pioneer Cycle Sports products, please continue to contact Pioneer Customer Service for your region.

◆ Notice
The notice is also posted on the following site.Please also check.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... 210524.php


◆ Q&A
Q&A regarding Termination of the Cyclo-Sphere Web Service and Transfer to Shimano’s New Web Service.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... 210524.php

◆ Contact
For inquiries regarding this matter, please contact Pioneer Customer Service in your area.

-----
1. Transfer from Cyclo-Sphere to Shimano's new web service

■ Procedures for transferring to Shimano's new web service
 We will announce the date when you can begin transferring data and the transfer procedures around the end of May.
 Please note the following.

- Shimano will provide its new web service under its own terms.
- Your workout data will not be automatically transferred. Users must do the transfer procedures.
- Workout data that is not transferred will cease to be available when the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
‐ If you wish to use past workout data with any other service or in any other way, please download in the FIT format before the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01

■ About Shimano’s New Web Service
- A new Dashboard will make it easier to look back on the day's riding logs
- You can check daily results with improved statistics and MMP screen.
- Detailed analysis of force vectors is possible with a tablet browser.
- It will be convenient to check statistics and MMP on a smartphone browser.
The following functions will not be a part of the new Shimano service:
・ Training Assist
・ Ranking
・ Section Segment
・ Detailed display of riding log on smartphone

■ About smartphone apps
- Cyclo-Sphere Analysis App will end with the Cyclo-Sphere service, after which it will no longer be available.

■ Firmware, maps for Pioneer hardware
- Shimano‘s new web service will not support firmware updates for the SGX-CA500, the SGX-CA600 and Pedaling Monitor Sensors, or map updates for the SGX-CA600.
Update the product firmware and the map before the termination of Cyclo-Sphere.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc02.

We will provide information about maps in a later announcement.
For your convenience, we recommend downloading the maps you may wish to use in the future while the Cyclo-Sphere service is still active.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc03.

2. Availability of Shimano's new web service

Shimano's new web service will not be available in all regions. If you live in an area not covered by the service, it will not be possible to transfer your ride log to Shimano's new web service.
Please download your ride log if necessary.

The areas that will not be covered include:
Taiwan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
Shimano currently plans to offer the new web service in the following countries:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, United States

-If you wish to download your workout data, please download it before the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated. The downloaded FIT file may be used with other services.
(Please ask the provider of your desired service what file formats they support.)
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01.
- Workout data will cease to be available when the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
- It will also become impossible to upload new workout data from your cycle computer.

For questions about the termination of the Cyclo-Sphere service or this notice, please contact Pioneer Customer Service for your region.

Best regards,
Felt F1 DA Di2 9050
Cinelli Supercorsa 9000
De Rosa Nuovo Classico SR12
Eddy Mercks Corsa Extra DA9100
Cielo Classic Sportif U8000
Concorde DA7800
Trek L500
Brooklyn Gangsta Track V4 with DXR
Cannondale CAAD 10 Track [custom]

Long time supporter of Rapha
Strava

ullmanz
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:47 pm

by ullmanz

Dov wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 10:07 am
This might provide some indicatipn of when launch is happening?
Dear Users of Pioneer Cycle Sports Products:
*This email is sent to all registered users of the Web service (Cyclo-Sphere). Due to the important content, we will also send it to those who do not wish to deliver it. note that.

On February 4, 2020, Pioneer Corporation announced that it had signed an agreement to transfer certain assets of the Pioneer Cycle Sports business to Shimano Inc. Now, we would like to inform you that the Cyclo-Sphere web service will be terminated and users in eligible regions will be transferred to a new web service operated by Shimano.

Current users of the Cyclo-Sphere service who live in regions where Shimano's new web service, which is due to be launched at the end of June 2021, is available will be able to use it with ride data logged in Cyclo-Sphere by taking procedures to transfer such data to the new service prior to the termination of Cyclo-Sphere.

◆ Current transfer schedule (subject to change)
--Mid-June, 2021 (exact date to be announced later): Cyclo-Sphere service terminated
--End of June 2021: Launch of Shimano's new web service

* If you wish to use any services other than Shimano's new web service, please download your workout data before the Cyclo-Sphere service terminates. The exact date will be provided in a later announcement. The downloaded FIT file may be used with other services.
(Please ask the provider of your desired service what file formats they support.)

After the Cyclo-Sphere service ends, you will no longer be able to download your data.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01.

Shimano's new web service will be different than Cyclo-Sphere. Please read and understand the following and take the necessary steps before the Cyclo-Sphere service terminates.
1. Transfer from Cyclo-Sphere to Shimano's new web service
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... php#anc_01

2. Availability of Shimano‘s new web service
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... php#anc_02

For service requests or inquiries for your Pioneer Cycle Sports products, please continue to contact Pioneer Customer Service for your region.

◆ Notice
The notice is also posted on the following site.Please also check.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... 210524.php


◆ Q&A
Q&A regarding Termination of the Cyclo-Sphere Web Service and Transfer to Shimano’s New Web Service.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... 210524.php

◆ Contact
For inquiries regarding this matter, please contact Pioneer Customer Service in your area.

-----
1. Transfer from Cyclo-Sphere to Shimano's new web service

■ Procedures for transferring to Shimano's new web service
 We will announce the date when you can begin transferring data and the transfer procedures around the end of May.
 Please note the following.

- Shimano will provide its new web service under its own terms.
- Your workout data will not be automatically transferred. Users must do the transfer procedures.
- Workout data that is not transferred will cease to be available when the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
‐ If you wish to use past workout data with any other service or in any other way, please download in the FIT format before the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01

■ About Shimano’s New Web Service
- A new Dashboard will make it easier to look back on the day's riding logs
- You can check daily results with improved statistics and MMP screen.
- Detailed analysis of force vectors is possible with a tablet browser.
- It will be convenient to check statistics and MMP on a smartphone browser.
The following functions will not be a part of the new Shimano service:
・ Training Assist
・ Ranking
・ Section Segment
・ Detailed display of riding log on smartphone

■ About smartphone apps
- Cyclo-Sphere Analysis App will end with the Cyclo-Sphere service, after which it will no longer be available.

■ Firmware, maps for Pioneer hardware
- Shimano‘s new web service will not support firmware updates for the SGX-CA500, the SGX-CA600 and Pedaling Monitor Sensors, or map updates for the SGX-CA600.
Update the product firmware and the map before the termination of Cyclo-Sphere.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc02.

We will provide information about maps in a later announcement.
For your convenience, we recommend downloading the maps you may wish to use in the future while the Cyclo-Sphere service is still active.
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc03.

2. Availability of Shimano's new web service

Shimano's new web service will not be available in all regions. If you live in an area not covered by the service, it will not be possible to transfer your ride log to Shimano's new web service.
Please download your ride log if necessary.

The areas that will not be covered include:
Taiwan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
Shimano currently plans to offer the new web service in the following countries:
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, United States

-If you wish to download your workout data, please download it before the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated. The downloaded FIT file may be used with other services.
(Please ask the provider of your desired service what file formats they support.)
https://global.pioneer/en/support/oshir ... _to/?anc01.
- Workout data will cease to be available when the Cyclo-Sphere service is terminated.
- It will also become impossible to upload new workout data from your cycle computer.

For questions about the termination of the Cyclo-Sphere service or this notice, please contact Pioneer Customer Service for your region.

Best regards,
To me this seems more software / web service related than hardware.

johnrho
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:27 pm

by johnrho

ullmanz wrote: To me this seems more software / web service related than hardware.
It goes hand in hand with the powermeter technology that Shimano bought from Pioneer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JMeinholdt
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:31 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

Got the same email. Makes sense to launch the new web service to coincide with a new hardware launch. Makes the end of June announcement seem that much more likely.
Wilier Cento10AIR Rim Brake - SRAM Force AXS
3T Exploro 105 - Gravel/Commuter/Trainer

Strava link: https://www.strava.com/athletes/jmeinholdt
YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/c/JMCyclingVideos1

User avatar
ms6073
Posts: 3581
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

Dear Users of Pioneer Cycle Sports Products:
2. Availability of Shimano's new web service

Shimano's new web service will not be available in all regions. If you live in an area not covered by the service, it will not be possible to transfer your ride log to Shimano's new web service.
Please download your ride log if necessary.

The areas that will not be covered include:
Taiwan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
Curious to know what sort of circumstances resulted in the exclusion of countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand from Shimano's roll out of the new web service.
- Michael
"Solving problems you didn't know you had in ways you probably won't understand"

johnrho
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:27 pm

by johnrho

ms6073 wrote: Curious to know what sort of circumstances resulted in the exclusion of countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand from Shimano's roll out of the new web service.
Probably due to privacy constraints for each of those country and where the data is actually being stored. Each country’s privacy officer probably haven’t signed off on Shimano’s new service


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by Weenie


OnTheRivet
Posts: 363
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

ms6073 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 4:57 pm
Dear Users of Pioneer Cycle Sports Products:
2. Availability of Shimano's new web service

Shimano's new web service will not be available in all regions. If you live in an area not covered by the service, it will not be possible to transfer your ride log to Shimano's new web service.
Please download your ride log if necessary.

The areas that will not be covered include:
Taiwan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.
Curious to know what sort of circumstances resulted in the exclusion of countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand from Shimano's roll out of the new web service.
Hard to overlook all four of those countries have taken a hard isolationist stance when it comes to Covid, that can't be just a coincidence? Not sure what the reasoning would be, but still?

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