Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
spdntrxi
Posts: 3900
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I'll take 13.. if all I have to do is switch freehubs
2019 BMC TM01 Road UCI config 7.36kg

by Weenie


User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

Nefarious86 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:24 am
Quite frankly anyone thinking that changing Di2 to wierless resembles a step forward has rocks in their head. Bar the one step of setting a bike up out of the box wires just work, one battery to charge and plenty of customisation with shift profiles.

Wires failing through poor setup or lack of maintenance isn't a fault of the system but of the end user unlike the generations long barely adequate front shifting with Sram..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
As I explained in an earlier post, SRAM provided and still provides major advantages by eliminating the wire (AND the cable housing AND the junction box) is its excellent-performance electronic shifting innovation.
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

Nefarious86
Moderator
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
Contact:

by Nefarious86

What advantages other than initial setup?

Charging multiple batteries more frequently?

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

Using Tapatalk

spdntrxi
Posts: 3900
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

Stendhal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:26 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:24 am
Quite frankly anyone thinking that changing Di2 to wierless resembles a step forward has rocks in their head. Bar the one step of setting a bike up out of the box wires just work, one battery to charge and plenty of customisation with shift profiles.

Wires failing through poor setup or lack of maintenance isn't a fault of the system but of the end user unlike the generations long barely adequate front shifting with Sram..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
As I explained in an earlier post, SRAM provided and still provides major advantages by eliminating the wire (AND the cable housing AND the junction box) is its excellent-performance electronic shifting innovation.
it's a one time thing though.... it's not like it's continuous. So I save 10min on the initial install... it's not major for 99% . It would only be major for someone that had a frame that had to run externally.
2019 BMC TM01 Road UCI config 7.36kg

BdaGhisallo
Posts: 2436
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

Stendhal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:26 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:24 am
Quite frankly anyone thinking that changing Di2 to wierless resembles a step forward has rocks in their head. Bar the one step of setting a bike up out of the box wires just work, one battery to charge and plenty of customisation with shift profiles.

Wires failing through poor setup or lack of maintenance isn't a fault of the system but of the end user unlike the generations long barely adequate front shifting with Sram..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
As I explained in an earlier post, SRAM provided and still provides major advantages by eliminating the wire (AND the cable housing AND the junction box) is its excellent-performance electronic shifting innovation.
No matter what I am using, I always prefer a wired connection to a wireless solution. An ethernet cable connection beats wifi any day, for instance. I see the wired connections of DI2 as a feature, not something to try and eliminate.

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

spdntrxi wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:36 pm
Stendhal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:26 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:24 am
Quite frankly anyone thinking that changing Di2 to wierless resembles a step forward has rocks in their head. Bar the one step of setting a bike up out of the box wires just work, one battery to charge and plenty of customisation with shift profiles.

Wires failing through poor setup or lack of maintenance isn't a fault of the system but of the end user unlike the generations long barely adequate front shifting with Sram..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
As I explained in an earlier post, SRAM provided and still provides major advantages by eliminating the wire (AND the cable housing AND the junction box) is its excellent-performance electronic shifting innovation.
it's a one time thing though.... it's not like it's continuous. So I save 10min on the initial install... it's not major for 99% . It would only be major for someone that had a frame that had to run externally.
The benefit in not needing a bike designed to accommodate extra cabling is continuous.
The benefit in not needing a junction box, some of which are still held by ugly zip ties, is continuous.
The benefit in not carrying the extra weight of two cables (housing, wires) is continuous. This is Weight Weenies, after all :D
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

BdaGhisallo wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:41 pm
Stendhal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:26 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:24 am
Quite frankly anyone thinking that changing Di2 to wierless resembles a step forward has rocks in their head. Bar the one step of setting a bike up out of the box wires just work, one battery to charge and plenty of customisation with shift profiles.

Wires failing through poor setup or lack of maintenance isn't a fault of the system but of the end user unlike the generations long barely adequate front shifting with Sram..

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
As I explained in an earlier post, SRAM provided and still provides major advantages by eliminating the wire (AND the cable housing AND the junction box) is its excellent-performance electronic shifting innovation.
No matter what I am using, I always prefer a wired connection to a wireless solution. An ethernet cable connection beats wifi any day, for instance. I see the wired connections of DI2 as a feature, not something to try and eliminate.
So in a home with multiple computers and television sets, you'd wire each to the internet / cable access box rather than using an internal wireless network? Perhaps, but the overwhelmingly majority of consumers would not; I'm sure the Verizons and AT& Ts of the world could confirm that. (Probably new home builders could too; how often today do they brag that they've wired each room for Internet connection? Maybe they still do, more likely not.)

Perhaps I am biased in that I've used eTap for 2 years and never had a transmission failure. With all due respect, I'm not certain that the wireless critics grasp that factor. They are so biased against SRAM that they don't realize that eTap WORKS as advertised. Sure SRAM has had issues or failures, including ones it fixed (e.g. , by Yaw). Wireless gear shifting isn't one of them.
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:29 pm
What advantages other than initial setup?

Charging multiple batteries more frequently?

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
See above, written before I saw your post Also, the batteries run a long time and are very, very fast and easy to recharge (without opening up the bike, I would add.). Battery life is a red herring, a false issue.
Last edited by Stendhal on Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

Nefarious86
Moderator
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am
Contact:

by Nefarious86

The weight of 4 batteries as opposed to one.
The mess of a Blip box on a TT bike.
Electronic routing is built into 99.9% of commercial frames now anyway and bar end/integrated junction ports are increasingly common.

And having owned Etap battery life needing charging every 3-4 weeks is no where near reaching convenient when you need multiple chargers to not have to swap and change batteries one at a time. Di2 plug one cable in every 2-3 months and you're done.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk


Using Tapatalk

User avatar
Noctiluxx
Posts: 1189
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

I would gladly take a wireless drivetrain as long as it comes with Shimano shifting, Shimano brakes, and Shaimno reliability. In the meantime I'm ok "compromising" having a couple of extra cables as long as I have Shimano shifting, Shaimno brakes, and Shimano reliability.
2018 Bianchi Oltre XR4, (Celeste Matt)
2018 De Rosa SK Pininfarina (Blu)
2019 Trek Madone SLR (Rage Red)
2019 Giant TCR Advanced SL (Chameleon Blue)
2019 Cervelo R5 Disk (Team Sunweb)
2019 Giant Revolt Advanced 0

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:00 pm
The weight of 4 batteries as opposed to one.
The mess of a Blip box on a TT bike.
Electronic routing is built into 99.9% of commercial frames now anyway and bar end/integrated junction ports are increasingly common.

And having owned Etap battery life needing charging every 3-4 weeks is no where near reaching convenient when you need multiple chargers to not have to swap and change batteries one at a time. Di2 plug one cable in every 2-3 months and you're done

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
Well, that may be it -- you must ride much more than me, which is cool. :) I ride about 400 miles per month. Battery recharge is 3 to 4 months, not weeks.

There is absolutely no need for multiple battery chargers...that claim is silly. Typically one battery needs recharging, and if it fails on the ride you swap it with the other. Then, you recharge battery 1, and then just in case battery 2. Very fast.

4 batteries as to weight savings is another red herring. Two are tiny, almost weightless watch batteries in the shifters, which I have never had to change. Every third party analysis I read when eTap came out found there was a weight advantage versus Di2 Dura Ace, all things held constant, including batteries. I know because I was in the market for bikes at the time and often thereafter. One reason why is the large savings from two fewer cables. I am not certain of this for AXS.

I agree that electronic routing is built into most high end bikes -- including by unnecessary and sometimes ugly multiports (I owned a Cento1 with particularly ugly ones) -- that lock the buyer into a particular set up, and may be a pain to set up. Go to the Road discussion forum right now; there are 2 threads about solving issues with Di2 cockpits. The industry had to adjust to Di2, it was disruptive. See my earlier post about bikes named for that feature. eTap gives the option of a frame with fewer stiffness-reducing holes. For example, when I bought a LOW// aluminum road bike, if I wanted to, I could have chosen no cable holes on the downtube. (I didn't, as I did not want eTap for that application.)

I overlooked the blip box point at first...understandably so, as you applied it to a bike type (TT) that's rarely discussed on this forum and never on the companion gravel forum, and to an optional feature.

Look, this may be beside the point depending on the patents. (The patent filing analyses in this and other sites are fascinating, great stuff.) All I request in the mean time is honesty and clear analyses of pros and cons. If Shimano released a wireless system, would you shun it?
Last edited by Stendhal on Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

rollinslow
Posts: 375
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:25 am

by rollinslow

I still can't get over the coin batteries in the etap shifters. Can throw that in the landfill along with the power meter and crank when you use it up. The disposable and incompatible world of SRAM components goes against everything I like as a cyclist.

Shimano will crush SRAM with the next gen like it already has.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Dura Ace 9100
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12 (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=161577)
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-in build queue

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

Noctiluxx wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:02 pm
I would gladly take a wireless drivetrain as long as it comes with Shimano shifting, Shimano brakes, and Shaimno reliability. In the meantime I'm ok "compromising" having a couple of extra cables as long as I have Shimano shifting, Shaimno brakes, and Shimano reliability.
That's a bingo...you're getting to the point that it's not wireless, it's brand preference. As for me, before electronics arrived, on the mechanical side, I used Shimano and SRAM and decided SRAM was better, including for reasons set forth in a post on this thread a few weeks ago. I stand by that assessment.
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

User avatar
Stendhal
Posts: 383
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:43 am
Location: Silicon Valley

by Stendhal

rollinslow wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:19 pm
I still can't get over the coin batteries in the etap shifters. Can throw that in the landfill along with the power meter and crank when you use it up. The disposable and incompatible world of SRAM components goes against everything I like as a cyclist.

Shimano will crush SRAM with the next gen like it already has.
Then you have a broader issue with all technology that uses batteries.

Shimano did not crush SRAM on mechanical shifting, nor on eTap generation one. Why would it do so now?
Cervelo Aspero (7.75); Orbea Orca OMX (7.30)
Retired: S-Works Tarmac SL6, LOW// mki, Pinarello Dogma F10\F8, Lapierre Pulsium, TIME Fluidity, Wilier Cento1 SR, Ridley Noah, Cyfac Cadence, Cervelo S2\R3\R5, Felt Z25, Klein Quantum, Cannondale 2.0

TheRich
Posts: 734
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Stendhal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:17 pm
Nefarious86 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:00 pm
The weight of 4 batteries as opposed to one.
The mess of a Blip box on a TT bike.
Electronic routing is built into 99.9% of commercial frames now anyway and bar end/integrated junction ports are increasingly common.

And having owned Etap battery life needing charging every 3-4 weeks is no where near reaching convenient when you need multiple chargers to not have to swap and change batteries one at a time. Di2 plug one cable in every 2-3 months and you're done

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
Well, that may be it -- you must ride much more than me, which is cool. :) I ride about 400 miles per month. Battery recharge is 3 to 4 months, not weeks.

There is absolutely no need for multiple battery chargers...that claim is silly. Typically one battery needs recharging, and if it fails on the ride you swap it with the other. Then, you recharge battery 1, and then just in case battery 2. Very fast.

4 batteries as to weight savings is another red herring. Two are tiny, almost weightless watch batteries in the shifters, which I have never had to change. Every third party analysis I read when eTap came out found there was a weight advantage versus Di2 Dura Ace, all things held constant, including batteries. I know because I was in the market for bikes at the time and often thereafter. One reason why is the large savings from two fewer cables. I am not certain of this for AXS.

I agree that electronic routing is built into most high end bikes -- including by unnecessary and sometimes ugly multiports (I owned a Cento1 with particularly ugly ones) -- that lock the buyer into a particular set up, and may be a pain to set up. Go to the Road discussion forum right now; there are 2 threads about solving issues with Di2 cockpits. The industry had to adjust to Di2, it was disruptive. See my earlier post about bikes named for that feature. eTap gives the option of a frame with fewer stiffness-reducing holes. For example, when I bought a LOW// aluminum road bike, if I wanted to, I could have chosen no cable holes on the downtube. (I didn't, as I did not want eTap for that application.)

I overlooked the blip box point at first...understandably so, as you applied it to a bike type (TT) that's rarely discussed on this forum and never on the companion gravel forum, and to an optional feature.

Look, this may be beside the point depending on the patents. (The patent filing analyses in this and other sites are fascinating, great stuff.) All I request in the mean time is honesty and clear analyses of pros and cons. If Shimano released a wireless system, would you shun it?
I guess you don't see how you're expecting a failure regarding battery life as if it were normal.

If Shimano offered both a wireless and legacy system, I'd stick with wires. Until we get magical cableless/hoseless brakes, wireless electronic shifting adds nothing but time and trouble in the long run.

by Weenie


Post Reply