Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

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pdlpsher1
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Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I think it's mainly due to engineering development delays. The pandemic certainly didn't help with the testing aspect of the development.

The XTR Di2 12-speed has also been delayed. It's been two years since Shimano introduced XTR M9100 12-speed mechanical drivetrain. I speculate that both XTR M9150 and Dura Ace 9250 will share the same semi-wireless architecture, hence the delay in introducing the M9150. Shimano could have introduced a wired M9150 but it decided to wait until Dura Ace is ready. This makes a lot of sense as MTB could benefit more from a semi-wireless setup than road. Now the big question is whether M9150 and Dura Ace will be introduced together, or one comes out before the other.

Whatever Shimano has up their sleeve it better be good. But I have a feeling that whatever Shimano brings to the table will be mainly on shift quality, functional refinement, and ergonomics. I just can't see that there are any dazzling new technologies accompanying the 9200 that will make me drool all over it. I hope I'm wrong.
Last edited by pdlpsher1 on Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


TheRich
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Hey, just because someone does MTB wireless doesn't mean everyone has to.

No front derailleur, no real need for electronic.

icantaffordcycling
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:03 am
Location: Bay Area, CA

by icantaffordcycling

Disagree, running wires/hoses for a brake, dropper and lockout is already a lot. Adding a shift line to that mess isn't fun.
Secondly, it's almost certain they will offer a di2 dropper. It's the next obvious step for grx.
Since grx and xtr have a lot of similarities already, and you are making a dropper, you might as well go all the way and offer a mtb di2 rd and shifter.

I own mtb axs and I probably wouldn't buy an electronic mtb group again. Still, it would be a missed opportunity for Shimano not to offer a competitor.

petromyzon
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

Got the impression they have held off on MTB Di2 because the previous generation sold very poorly - happy to be corrected though.

I am sure Shimano will have been aware of the issues/criticisms surrounding the power meter for several years. I think they will have to design the crankset, or at least a version of it, to be a powermeter from the outset rather than stick strain gauges on a complex, assymetrical design and try and make it work. Something direct mount and spider-based would be one option, or they could stick with discrete L/R measurement but with a simpler right arm geometry. Red AXS' integrated PM/spider/chainring is a little extreme for some people but clearly prioritises accurate power data above other considerations.

Shimano are in a strong position in most sectors and most regions and their releases set the technical tone for the industry. They can afford a "less successful" release like 7900. However, if this generation has reliable and cost effective power measurement at Ultegra level there will be profound implications for the likes of Stages, Power2Max and 4iiii. I'm sure there is no coincidence that Pioneer sold out to Shimano, although I'm intrigued what the specific aspects of the former's technology were that Shimano felt they needed.

BdaGhisallo
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm

by BdaGhisallo

petromyzon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:40 am
Got the impression they have held off on MTB Di2 because the previous generation sold very poorly - happy to be corrected though.

That's what I have heard too. It seems that fewer people wanted to shell out for expensive DI2 derr's for them to face a far higher chance of getting damaged in use on a MTB.

ericlambi
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:16 pm

by ericlambi

Regarding power meters ... they should (but won't) build it into their pedals. Game over for a lot of other PM companies if they did this, and make it easier to spec bikes (won't have half the people buying the bike wanting to ditch their expensive non-PM crank).

tutle2020
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:11 am

by tutle2020

BdaGhisallo wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:51 am
petromyzon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:40 am
Got the impression they have held off on MTB Di2 because the previous generation sold very poorly - happy to be corrected though.

That's what I have heard too. It seems that fewer people wanted to shell out for expensive DI2 derr's for them to face a far higher chance of getting damaged in use on a MTB.
Most people that I know didn't want to shell out for 1x11 XTR Di2 because SRAM was just better at the time, both 1x11 and 1x12. Now the new SLX/XT/XTR are groupsets are excellent and I believe a lot of people would go for an upgrade kit to Di2 (including me).

Cemicar
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:40 am

by Cemicar

BdaGhisallo wrote:
petromyzon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:40 am
Got the impression they have held off on MTB Di2 because the previous generation sold very poorly - happy to be corrected though.

That's what I have heard too. It seems that fewer people wanted to shell out for expensive DI2 derr's for them to face a far higher chance of getting damaged in use on a MTB.
So Eagle Etap hasn't sold well either?

KyleH
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:51 pm

by KyleH

Cemicar wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:56 pm
BdaGhisallo wrote:
petromyzon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:40 am
Got the impression they have held off on MTB Di2 because the previous generation sold very poorly - happy to be corrected though.

That's what I have heard too. It seems that fewer people wanted to shell out for expensive DI2 derr's for them to face a far higher chance of getting damaged in use on a MTB.
So Eagle Etap hasn't sold well either?
I feel like Eagle has been selling well for the mullet gravel crew whereas with Di2 you have GRX that would compete against XTR for the gravel crowd.

ipenguinking
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

Di2 makes MTB too expensive to sell. The demand for that price point just isn't there. Here in Southern California I see too many $10K+ USD road bikes everytime I'm on the road, but only few $5K+ mtb on the trails. Not to mention a good portion of MTB I see are from 90's with rusty components and clunking suspension.

petromyzon
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

I think power pedals and power cranksets will coexist for a while - lots of people will have valid reasons, such as pedal preference, for choosing one or the other upgrade path. I doubt Shimano will get in to the pedal game. Will be interesting to see if Speedplay/Wahoo do.

petromyzon
Posts: 580
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

No idea on Eagle sales. But perhaps Shimano happy to let SRAM have that corner of the market for now.

There is no doubt that there is plenty of appetite for £10k road bikes but (at least in this country) most people wouldn't want to spend half that on an MTB which is going to get dirty on the first ride.

Suspect R9200 Di2 hydraulic prices will have a bit of a sticker shock feel to them.

XCProMD
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

pdlpsher1 wrote:I think it's mainly due to engineering development delays. The pandemic certainly didn't help with the testing aspect of the development.

The XTR Di2 12-speed has also been delayed. It's been two years since Shimano introduced XTR M9100 12-speed mechanical drivetrain. I speculate that both XTR M9150 and Dura Ace 9250 will share the same semi-wireless architecture, hence the delay in introducting the M9150. Shimano could have introduced a wired M9150 but it decided to wait until Dura Ace is ready. This makes a lot of sense as MTB could benefit more from a semi-wireless setup than road. Now the big question is whether M9150 and Dura Ace will be introduced together, or one comes out before the other.

Whatever Shimano has up their sleeve it better be good. But I have a feeling that whatever Shimano brings to the table will be mainly on shift quality, functional refinement, and ergonomics. I just can't see that there are any dazzling new technologies accompanying the 9200 that will make me drool all over it. I hope I'm wrong.
The problem with XTR/XT Di2 is of a different nature. Bit of a *f##k* ATM


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XCProMD
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

ipenguinking wrote:Di2 makes MTB too expensive to sell. The demand for that price point just isn't there. Here in Southern California I see too many $10K+ USD road bikes everytime I'm on the road, but only few $5K+ mtb on the trails. Not to mention a good portion of MTB I see are from 90's with rusty components and clunking suspension.
Come to the Alps if you want to see AXS equipped MTB’s. Quite many actually.


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Sockman
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm

by Sockman

petromyzon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:57 pm
I think power pedals and power cranksets will coexist for a while - lots of people will have valid reasons, such as pedal preference, for choosing one or the other upgrade path. I doubt Shimano will get in to the pedal game. Will be interesting to see if Speedplay/Wahoo do.
I feel like the most common comment about the garmin powermeter pedals is the lack of shimano compatibility (ok only half true). If shimano came out with their own dura ace level powermeter pedal, I call it game over for the rest!

by Weenie


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