Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
ipenguinking
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Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:14 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal

by ipenguinking

i wonder why it is so difficult for Sram to offer good FD for its top end groups? Both Shimano and Campy are doing that for years. The mechanical 9000-series DA FD on my old bike works perfectly on SRM 7800, 7900 and 9000. Never drop chain. And the 9150 Di2 + P-9100 on my current bike has work flawlessly for 2 years. Never drop chain.

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Dan Gerous
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by Dan Gerous

grnrcr wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:12 am
Slower shifts and dropped chain = Sram benefits. I've had Di2 for years and recently got Red AXS. No way AXS is better than Di2. Cleaner install is the only thing it has over Di2.
For me, eTAP beats Di2 on shifter's logic, ie, only two buttons, I think it's much more intuitive than 4 buttons and eTAP's shift paddles feel 200x better as they have a nice tactile and audio feedback when pressed while Di2 buttons are a bit too dead/vague feeling for my tastes, like tapping a touch screen and they suck even more with full fingered gloves when it's cold, as it's easier to hit two buttons or not being sure if you get the right one or if you actually pushed one at all...

But that's it, Di2 is better in all other aspects and even the inferior shifters would lead me to go back to Di2 for my next bike, and that's coming from someone that has never had eTAP front derailleurs issues (I think SRAM don't drop chains anymore than Shimano if it's setup perfectly, but it's much harder to set perfectly while setting Di2 is much easier, pretty dumbproof and much more tolerant to a less than perfect setup and at least eTAP front mechs don't suffer from a lack of stiffness of older SRAM front derailleurs). Di2 is more reliable, smoother, more silent, quicker, and so on.

Wireless only matters for ease of install but otherwise completely pointless IMO, I don't have to build my bikes from scratch every month anyway so I hope Shimano sticks with the reliable wires which also allow the much longer lasting single battery and the nicer, smaller form factor of the derailleurs, AXS rear mechs look ridiculously big!

by Weenie


grnrcr
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by grnrcr

Dan Gerous wrote: For me, eTAP beats Di2 on shifter's logic, ie, only two buttons, I think it's much more intuitive than 4 buttons and eTAP's shift paddles feel 200x better as they have a nice tactile and audio feedback when pressed while Di2 buttons are a bit too dead/vague feeling for my tastes, like tapping a touch screen and they suck even more with full fingered gloves when it's cold, as it's easier to hit two buttons or not being sure if you get the right one or if you actually pushed one at all...
Sram only wins when we are talking subjective things - shift logic, button feel, hydraulic modulation feel, etc. Yes, important stuff when you are spending this much money but Di2 does all the same things just differently.

Not shifting properly and dropping chains are objective flaws that are simply inexcusable even on an entry level groupset nowadays let alone top end.

Sorry about venting so much in a Shimano thread. I had high hopes for Sram since that’s what I started riding with before moving to Di2. The return has been rocky.

It’s simple, do I want to worry about shifting or do I wanna focus on riding when I’m going hard?

TheRich
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

Dan Gerous wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:28 pm
For me, eTAP beats Di2 on shifter's logic, ie, only two buttons, I think it's much more intuitive than 4 buttons and eTAP's shift paddles feel 200x better as they have a nice tactile and audio feedback when pressed while Di2 buttons are a bit too dead/vague feeling for my tastes, like tapping a touch screen and they suck even more with full fingered gloves when it's cold, as it's easier to hit two buttons or not being sure if you get the right one or if you actually pushed one at all...
One thing that Shimano loves to do is to coddle a hard headed minority and take a little too much care in not changing anything, which results in sub-par performance compared to SRAM. Shift lever function, road AND mountain, is where this really shows.

People are used to controlling one derailleur with each STI lever, so (out of the box) that's what Di2 does. SRAM, not giving a crap about forcing people to learn new habits, doesn't. But the thing is that Di2 is fully customizable, and if you control the derailleurs in a more SRAM-like way, it makes it easier to use after you learn the new habits. On the mountain side, as long as the release lever retains push and pull functionality, they'll never feel as good as a SRAM shifter. SRAM, not giving a crap, told everyone to use their index finger for the brake and thumb for the shifter and people just deal with it. Without complaint, which shouldn't be ignored or overlooked.

SRAM as the underdog gets a ton of leeway...even when they do exactly what the Shimano haters said Shimano would do, like making AXS completely incompatable with the previous generation. I can only imagine the outcry if Shimano reintroduced Suntour Micro-Drive from the 90's and blindly made the smallest and most inefficient overdrive cogs on a MTB cassette the more frequently used top end of a road cassette and require a new freehub driver while they're at it.

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Dan Gerous
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by Dan Gerous

TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 pm
But the thing is that Di2 is fully customizable, and if you control the derailleurs in a more SRAM-like way, it makes it easier to use after you learn the new habits.
I did exactly that as I have one bike with eTAP and one with DA Di2, so my Di2 bike is set so the left hand upshifts, right hand downshifts, front-most buttons control the front mech, rear-most buttons the rear mech, it's much more intuitive if you forget the cable forced setups and cuts the risk of mis-shifting when I jump from one bike to the other, plus, the rear-most buttons being on the rear edges, it's easier to make sure you get them with gloves and they're used a lot more than the front mech buttons... But the Di2 buttons are still nowhere as nice to push as the SRAM ones, if there is one thing I hope they improve on the next generation Di2, that's it.

TheRich
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by TheRich

Dan Gerous wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 pm
TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 pm
But the thing is that Di2 is fully customizable, and if you control the derailleurs in a more SRAM-like way, it makes it easier to use after you learn the new habits.
I did exactly that as I have one bike with eTAP and one with DA Di2, so my Di2 bike is set so the left hand upshifts, right hand downshifts, front-most buttons control the front mech, rear-most buttons the rear mech, it's much more intuitive if you forget the cable forced setups and cuts the risk of mis-shifting when I jump from one bike to the other, plus, the rear-most buttons being on the rear edges, it's easier to make sure you get them with gloves and they're used a lot more than the front mech buttons... But the Di2 buttons are still nowhere as nice to push as the SRAM ones, if there is one thing I hope they improve on the next generation Di2, that's it.
I just find it easier to have the most used buttons the biggest ones, especially when my hands get a little numb or while wearing thicker gloves. The A button is enough like a mechanical shift lever in size and range of motion that it just doesn't need much feedback, and the B button does have a "click" to it, although not as distinct as a mechanical release lever. But that sharp and distinct "click" of a mechanical was just the internal workings, not some design feature.

While the rider would learn the new techniques for SRAM shifters, I don't agree with any button doing more than one function because it will eventually result in getting one function while intending another. It's a case of simplifying something to the point of overcomplicating it...or being different just to be different, like the cassette and chainring sizes for AXS. They could have made the 10t an overdrive gear and given someone a real advantage, but they threw it all away by downsizing their chainrings as well. Hopefuly Shimano doesn't chase SRAM down that rabbit hole.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

50x10 is an overdrive gear unless you think 47mph at 120rpm is cruising speed.

I feel confident that third parties will start selling larger chainrings than the SRAM 50/37 option too.

TheRich
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:45 am
I disagree that wireless introduces more points of failure, especially when water surface tension and ingress are a thing. If you’ve ever DIY with cables and wiring around the exterior of a home, you know what a service drip loop is and why it’s important. Every single cable junction is a point of failure / possible ingress.
Yet it isn't a problem with Di2. There comes a point when you're just inventing possible problems while ignoring the absense of those problems.

I blew off charging my Di2 this month (the only interval I can reasonably stick with), can you do that with AXS?

TheRich
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:28 pm
50x10 is an overdrive gear unless you think 47mph at 120rpm is cruising speed.

I feel confident that third parties will start selling larger chainrings than the SRAM 50/37 option too.
120rpm will never be "cruising," and a second party "fixing" SRAM's omission isn't quite a compliment to SRAM (which won't work with their PM), it's an admission of a mistake.

50x10 will always be lower than 53x10, and there's absolutely no need for smaller chainrings for road bikes. I'd much rather have a slightly higher speed while rolling out from a descent while maintaining current gear spacing. That would be an advantage, more drag because of smaller chainrings and cogs is a disadvantage.

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Dan Gerous
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by Dan Gerous

TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:13 pm
Dan Gerous wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 pm
TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 pm
But the thing is that Di2 is fully customizable, and if you control the derailleurs in a more SRAM-like way, it makes it easier to use after you learn the new habits.
I did exactly that as I have one bike with eTAP and one with DA Di2, so my Di2 bike is set so the left hand upshifts, right hand downshifts, front-most buttons control the front mech, rear-most buttons the rear mech, it's much more intuitive if you forget the cable forced setups and cuts the risk of mis-shifting when I jump from one bike to the other, plus, the rear-most buttons being on the rear edges, it's easier to make sure you get them with gloves and they're used a lot more than the front mech buttons... But the Di2 buttons are still nowhere as nice to push as the SRAM ones, if there is one thing I hope they improve on the next generation Di2, that's it.
I just find it easier to have the most used buttons the biggest ones, especially when my hands get a little numb or while wearing thicker gloves. The A button is enough like a mechanical shift lever in size and range of motion that it just doesn't need much feedback, and the B button does have a "click" to it, although not as distinct as a mechanical release lever. But that sharp and distinct "click" of a mechanical was just the internal workings, not some design feature.

While the rider would learn the new techniques for SRAM shifters, I don't agree with any button doing more than one function because it will eventually result in getting one function while intending another. It's a case of simplifying something to the point of overcomplicating it...or being different just to be different, like the cassette and chainring sizes for AXS. They could have made the 10t an overdrive gear and given someone a real advantage, but they threw it all away by downsizing their chainrings as well. Hopefuly Shimano doesn't chase SRAM down that rabbit hole.
I gotta admit I haven't tried the 9100 Di2 levers, I think the buttons have improved over 9000...

A reason SRAM has to do things differently is because they have no choice, Shimano (and Campagnolo) have so many patents that SRAM are forced to work around them.

I also hope Shimano sticks with a 11t smallest cog.

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corky
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Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

Dan Gerous wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:48 pm
TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:13 pm
Dan Gerous wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 pm
TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 pm
But the thing is that Di2 is fully customizable, and if you control the derailleurs in a more SRAM-like way, it makes it easier to use after you learn the new habits.
I did exactly that as I have one bike with eTAP and one with DA Di2, so my Di2 bike is set so the left hand upshifts, right hand downshifts, front-most buttons control the front mech, rear-most buttons the rear mech, it's much more intuitive if you forget the cable forced setups and cuts the risk of mis-shifting when I jump from one bike to the other, plus, the rear-most buttons being on the rear edges, it's easier to make sure you get them with gloves and they're used a lot more than the front mech buttons... But the Di2 buttons are still nowhere as nice to push as the SRAM ones, if there is one thing I hope they improve on the next generation Di2, that's it.
I just find it easier to have the most used buttons the biggest ones, especially when my hands get a little numb or while wearing thicker gloves. The A button is enough like a mechanical shift lever in size and range of motion that it just doesn't need much feedback, and the B button does have a "click" to it, although not as distinct as a mechanical release lever. But that sharp and distinct "click" of a mechanical was just the internal workings, not some design feature.

While the rider would learn the new techniques for SRAM shifters, I don't agree with any button doing more than one function because it will eventually result in getting one function while intending another. It's a case of simplifying something to the point of overcomplicating it...or being different just to be different, like the cassette and chainring sizes for AXS. They could have made the 10t an overdrive gear and given someone a real advantage, but they threw it all away by downsizing their chainrings as well. Hopefuly Shimano doesn't chase SRAM down that rabbit hole.
I gotta admit I haven't tried the 9100 Di2 levers, I think the buttons have improved over 9000...

A reason SRAM has to do things differently is because they have no choice, Shimano (and Campagnolo) have so many patents that SRAM are forced to work around them.

I also hope Shimano sticks with a 11t smallest cog.
But that goes both ways...it’s SRAM patent(s) that has thus far anyway, prevented Campagnolo and Shimano from producing a wireless group set

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:29 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:45 am
I disagree that wireless introduces more points of failure, especially when water surface tension and ingress are a thing. If you’ve ever DIY with cables and wiring around the exterior of a home, you know what a service drip loop is and why it’s important. Every single cable junction is a point of failure / possible ingress.
Yet it isn't a problem with Di2. There comes a point when you're just inventing possible problems while ignoring the absense of those problems.

I blew off charging my Di2 this month (the only interval I can reasonably stick with), can you do that with AXS?

Except it actually is a problem for a lot of Di2 bikes at, say, Kona that get left out in the paddock/staging area overnight.

TheRich
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

corky wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:01 pm
But that goes both ways...it’s SRAM patent(s) that has thus far anyway, prevented Campagnolo and Shimano from producing a wireless group set
Which implies a great need for wireless and all the recurring complications that it introduces.

Another case of being different just to be different, like an $800 dropper post (A cable operated Reverb post is $399), an upside for that obscene bit of kit is that it ends up being a spare battery holder. The fix for unnecessary complication is MORE unnecessary (and expensive) complications!
Last edited by TheRich on Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheRich
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

by TheRich

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:17 pm
TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:29 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:45 am
I disagree that wireless introduces more points of failure, especially when water surface tension and ingress are a thing. If you’ve ever DIY with cables and wiring around the exterior of a home, you know what a service drip loop is and why it’s important. Every single cable junction is a point of failure / possible ingress.
Yet it isn't a problem with Di2. There comes a point when you're just inventing possible problems while ignoring the absense of those problems.

I blew off charging my Di2 this month (the only interval I can reasonably stick with), can you do that with AXS?

Except it actually is a problem for a lot of Di2 bikes at, say, Kona that get left out in the paddock/staging area overnight.
But not a problem for the countless washes and wet rides that Di2 users have subjected their bikes to.

Yeah, if the connections were crap, that would be a problem, but it's pretty clear that the connections aren't crap.

by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 5689
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:23 pm

But not a problem for the countless washes and wet rides that Di2 users have subjected their bikes to.

Yeah, if the connections were crap, that would be a problem, but it's pretty clear that the connections aren't crap.

I’ve also seen corroded Di2 battery leads on a few bikes. I assume it’s from washing and then laying the bike sideways or even hanging them upside down.

Even the best sealed connectors suffer from water ingress given enough pressure / saturation. Seen it with countless interfaces...f-conn, bnc, etc. Anyway, the point is cable drip exists on one platform and not the other. I made no specific claims about Di2 failure rates specific to that, only that it is possible and has happened on certain scenarios.

TheRich wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:41 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:28 pm
50x10 is an overdrive gear unless you think 47mph at 120rpm is cruising speed.

I feel confident that third parties will start selling larger chainrings than the SRAM 50/37 option too.
120rpm will never be "cruising," and a second party "fixing" SRAM's omission isn't quite a compliment to SRAM (which won't work with their PM), it's an admission of a mistake.

50x10 will always be lower than 53x10, and there's absolutely no need for smaller chainrings for road bikes. I'd much rather have a slightly higher speed while rolling out from a descent while maintaining current gear spacing. That would be an advantage, more drag because of smaller chainrings and cogs is a disadvantage.

Okay so bump it down to 100rpm (39mph) or 90rpm (35mph.)

Third party chainrings will work with their PM. You just have to buy the version of the power meter crankset with the 107bcd 4-bolt Quarq spider. It works with both 1x and 2x configs and isn’t even significantly heavier.

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