Next generation of Dura-Ace Di2

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
SilentDrone
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by SilentDrone

Alexbn921 wrote:
Imaking20 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:51 pm
^source for those numbers?
Every single high-end complete mountain bike Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Specialized...has sold in the last 2 years has had sram eagle on it. Walk into any bike shop and look at the bikes available.
I thought we were talking about DA road group? It is widely acknowledged that Shimano botched the release of 1x 12 spd XTR but it’s out now and it will quickly gain back ground, just watch.


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Imaking20
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by Imaking20

So... the source is your ass?
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by Weenie


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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

Belshazzar wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:09 pm
BS. 10 years ago there were a lot of pro tour teams on SRAM 10 speed. They learned their lesson. Now there are only 2. Anyone who says AXS shifts as well or as quickly as Di2 either hasn't used Di2, or is trying to rationalize their purchase of a $3000 groupset that shifts less well than its mechanical counterpart. Not even close to 95% of the bikes we sell have AXS on them. Right now it's probably 60% Di2, 40% AXS, and 10% Campy. The SRAM numbers are only that high because of the novelty of a new 12sp groupset. I expect those numbers to go down once the early adopters get their fix.

I was only talking about mountain bikes.

Your numbers seem to jive on the road side. AXS is way too new to be wide spread and the price excludes it form most builds. The masses want new/shiny and 11 vs 12 is an easy selling point.

FYI I have ridden many Di2 bikes and have AXS on my current build. Shift quality is exceptional on both systems. It’s impossible to tell the speed or smoothness apart. I didn't like the small buttons on the Di2 shifters and I like the Sram brakes better. This is coming from a diehard Shimano brake guy that takes every opportunity to bash Sram's complete crap mountain brakes. AXS shifters are easy and intuitive. They offer great feedback and rear shifting is excellent.

I expect the numbers to go up as pricing comes down and availability increases. Manufactures will spec it simply because it’s newer and has 1 more gear. They don’t care if it’s better or now.

I don’t expect Shimano to completely loose the high-end road side like they did with mountain. Then again they lost my money on both, simply by not competing. I want Dura Ace 12 speed and I want it now. The longer they wait the worse it will be for them.

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

Imaking20 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:27 pm
So... the source is your ass?
yes and my eyes. :thumbup:

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Alexbn921
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by Alexbn921

I hope the dura ace comes out soon. I hope that the smallest cog will be an 11, but it won't. I want wires and a single battery, but it will most likely be wireless. I want it to be compatible with 11 speed parts, but it won't be. I also hope that a mechanical version will be released at some point.

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

XDR doesn't actually need a new hub for road.
New freehub body, yes. But whole new hub is not required. I hope new Shimano Microspline is the same.

XDR is 1.85mm wider than XD. XD use MTB freehub width.
Road 11 speed freehub body is also 1.85mm wider than MTB 11 speed hub (which is the same as MTB and road 10 speed). So XDR is just as wide as Shimano/Sram 11 speed road freehub body.

It is a straight swap of freehub body without replacing the hub or redishing the wheel for XDR. However, it can be tricky if Shimano stubbornly only allow few selected manufacturers to offer Microspline freehub body, rather than having it open standard.

schlafen
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm

by schlafen

aeroisnteverything wrote:
schlafen wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 pm
You answered your own question: it's magic.

The same reason you don't log around a rotor phone: convenience, progress, entertainment, you name it.
I'm sure a phone call made with a rotor phone now would be perfectly acceptable but who would settle for that with the choice available.
...
The rotary phone is a totally wrong analogy. I am not comparing SRAM etap to mechanical shifting. I am comparing it to Di2. What is the difference in function that you notice when riding, apart from SRAM being slower and worse shifting FD?

You are assuming that I only own 1 bike.

Also sram just opened the door to own multiple frames for multiple things but only 1 groupset, with minor variations like cassettes, chainrings, wheels, now that the groupset is so easy to swap around...
Looks like a mtb rear derailleur can be paired as well.
Are you seriously going to move components from one bike to another? Which components? Shifters, which you need to reconnect to hydro brake lines, as well as potentially requiring you to unwrap the bar tape? FD or RD, which requires also taking off the chain? Really? I tend to think this sort of hot-swapping is only possible with wheels and saddles, but maybe I am not thinking out of the box enough.
I don't want to clog this thread with axs talk. You can reply to me in that thread if you wish.

Just to get this out of the way I was comparing wireless vs wired as a concept. It would be funny to use a rotor phone now though.
I never even considered Di2 from the beginning because of the wires, unnecessary complicated.
I didn't buy etap 11 speed because it was the first generation and the first ones are always problematic.
I rode a borrowed bike from one of my mates a few days ago, as mine was out of commission and was sold on axs.

Wireless shifting is a BIG thing... for me at least. There's no competition from shimano, for now. In a year or two, well, that's a long time which I don't want to waste waiting on a wireless dura ace groupset.

It would be foolish not to have multiple bikes now. Cheapest n+1 ever.

Again, you are assuming I ride bikes with hydraulic disc brakes. I don't.

As far as people using hydraulic brakes swapping groupsets... well, I just don't care, it's their problem.

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Karvalo
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by Karvalo

Alexbn921 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:29 pm
I don’t expect Shimano to completely loose the high-end road side like they did with mountain. Then again they lost my money on both, simply by not competing. I want Dura Ace 12 speed and I want it now. The longer they wait the worse it will be for them.
Ok, but worse than really not at all bad is still not at all bad.

Honestly, AXS is nice for SRAM but it's not making a dent Shimano's numbers. This is not MTB 1x all over again. Compared to the Ultegra DI2 pouring out the door every day Force AXS is a nice little break in the routine every now and then. It's niche.

icantaffordcycling
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by icantaffordcycling

Shimano will need to find a way to make last-gen shifters incompatible with the 12 speed rear mech. Any bets on how it is going to be done? Wireless doesn't seem like a possibility.
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:30 pm
Shimano will need to find a way to make last-gen shifters incompatible with the 12 speed rear mech. Any bets on how it is going to be done? Wireless doesn't seem like a possibility.
Why would they do it?
6770 Ultegra shifters from 10 speed age still can control 6870,9070, 8050 and 9150 11 speed front and rear mech. The only exception was 7970 which is the first ever Di2 isn't compatible with anything else due to wiring differences. After the first Di2 in 7970, Shimano simplify electronic wires. It can also work with MTB di2. The main restriction in Di2 is that the front derailleur and rear derailleur must be both from road group. or both from MTB group. MTB RD+ road FD doesn't work.

They really need a good reason if they want to stop someone from continue using 10 speed di2 shifters on 12 speed.
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

icantaffordcycling wrote:Shimano will need to find a way to make last-gen shifters incompatible with the 12 speed rear mech. Any bets on how it is going to be done? Wireless doesn't seem like a possibility.
Maybe they’ll introduce a chain with a different roller diameter. Naahhh... who would do that.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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icantaffordcycling
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by icantaffordcycling

Calnago wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:48 pm
a chain with different roller pitch/diameter
New jockey wheels and software update. BAM the rear mech is 12 speed, right? Am I missing something?
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Wireless shifting isn't that important, but wireless communication/configuration is important enough that Di2 has it via E-Tube. So why leave it to another piece of hardware in a subsequent update...just integrate it and add wireless shifting while you're at it. I still think they won't/can't due to carefully worded SRAM patents regarding battery location.

icantaffordcycling
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by icantaffordcycling

@THY what is wrong with the current EW-WU111. It saves money for people who don't want/need it. There is nothing that it offers to me other than making the initial setup easier.
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by Weenie


Hexsense
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by Hexsense

icantaffordcycling wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:57 pm
@THY what is wrong with the current EW-WU111. It saves money for people who don't want/need it. There is nothing that it offers to me other than making the initial setup easier.
Uhm, i find it real useful on my ride. I look down to my bike computer, it show exactly what gear i'm in. Other than reminding me if i still have gear left to shift into,
I shift exactly to 10th gear before stopping at red light ready to accelerate out with low gear without extreme cross chaining. Without it, i'd have to look back to the cassette and try to count while chain are still moving, that's dangerous.

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