Dura-Ace R9200

[BdaGhisallo]

Does anyone know if Shimano is doing frame grommets to fit the new SD300 wires released with the 12sp groups? I have hunted around and haven't come up with anything. The new wires are thinner than the SD50 so I'm thinking re-using the old grommets might invite water ingress.

[misteryellow]

So why does Di2 not have auto shifting? And I don't mean syncro shifting but auto shifting based on power and other parameters. That would make Di2 actually useful, never having to think of shifting and keeping a steady pace. Would be ideal in winter to where your hands are cold. Apparently STEPS already had this in 2016 https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/informat ... ps-an.html https://cyclingtips.com/2022/07/shimano ... -shifting/ other Di2 ebikes have it too..

[TerryDi2C]

Does anyone know if Shimano is doing frame grommets to fit the new SD300 wires released with the 12sp groups? I have hunted around and haven't come up with anything. The new wires are thinner than the SD50 so I'm thinking re-using the old grommets might invite water ingress.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 300-S.html
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 300-M.html

[Nickldn]

So why does Di2 not have auto shifting? And I don't mean syncro shifting but auto shifting based on power and other parameters. That would make Di2 actually useful, never having to think of shifting and keeping a steady pace. Would be ideal in winter to where your hands are cold. Apparently STEPS already had this in 2016 https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/informat ... ps-an.html https://cyclingtips.com/2022/07/shimano ... -shifting/ other Di2 ebikes have it too..

Guess it's because humans are not electric ebike motors.

How can a computer possibly know when I want to shift? My optimum power and torque will differ from the guy on the bike next to me. Hell, my optimum power and torque varies from day to day, even hour to hour.

[BdaGhisallo]

Does anyone know if Shimano is doing frame grommets to fit the new SD300 wires released with the 12sp groups? I have hunted around and haven't come up with anything. The new wires are thinner than the SD50 so I'm thinking re-using the old grommets might invite water ingress.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 300-S.html
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 300-M.html

Terry,

Many thanks.

[misteryellow]

So why does Di2 not have auto shifting? And I don't mean syncro shifting but auto shifting based on power and other parameters. That would make Di2 actually useful, never having to think of shifting and keeping a steady pace. Would be ideal in winter to where your hands are cold. Apparently STEPS already had this in 2016 https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/informat ... ps-an.html https://cyclingtips.com/2022/07/shimano ... -shifting/ other Di2 ebikes have it too..

Guess it's because humans are not electric ebike motors.

How can a computer possibly know when I want to shift? My optimum power and torque will differ from the guy on the bike next to me. Hell, my optimum power and torque varies from day to day, even hour to hour.

The reason they went for ebikes is most likely two fold: they already have a powermeter and the competition has autoshifting bikes, such as the Enviolo system. This concept can also be replicated on road bikes, using a powermeter and possibly a gps. Of course autoshifting would be very different on an ebike. For instance, sometimes you are standing up and want to put power down and you don't want to shift under such load. But it can be great for recovery rides where your speed and power are limited. The system could also learn from your shifting habits and adapt to your riding style. You could have modes such as 'recovery mode', 'leisurely mode' or 'city mode' to help with the constant shifting at stoplights.

[ultimobici]

The reason they went for ebikes is most likely two fold: they already have a powermeter and the competition has autoshifting bikes, such as the Enviolo system. This concept can also be replicated on road bikes, using a powermeter and possibly a gps. Of course autoshifting would be very different on an ebike. For instance, sometimes you are standing up and want to put power down and you don't want to shift under such load. But it can be great for recovery rides where your speed and power are limited. The system could also learn from your shifting habits and adapt to your riding style. You could have modes such as 'recovery mode', 'leisurely mode' or 'city mode' to help with the constant shifting at stoplights.

How long have you been away from the golf course? Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.

[misteryellow]

The reason they went for ebikes is most likely two fold: they already have a powermeter and the competition has autoshifting bikes, such as the Enviolo system. This concept can also be replicated on road bikes, using a powermeter and possibly a gps. Of course autoshifting would be very different on an ebike. For instance, sometimes you are standing up and want to put power down and you don't want to shift under such load. But it can be great for recovery rides where your speed and power are limited. The system could also learn from your shifting habits and adapt to your riding style. You could have modes such as 'recovery mode', 'leisurely mode' or 'city mode' to help with the constant shifting at stoplights.

How long have you been away from the golf course? Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.

I went golfing last week. I agree with your statement about the lack of hand holding & arse wiping, though I would rephrase it to simplicity. I ride a rimbrake bike with mechanical gears and see no benefit to electronic shifting. However, if the industry does decide to go electronic I'd like to see it used to its full potential. The idea of automatic shifting does not add any mechanical or electronic complexity to existing technology, it merely synthesises existing technology and uses software to optimise it. I would also like to add that the argument that it doesn't offer 'any real benefit' is a limited one. Autoshifting could enable disabled people to ride a road bike or help elderly people with arthrosis to continue riding. I must say I like your comment because it proves I'm at the tip of the spear when it comes to technology. There is a certain irony though that you as a user on a messageboard dedicated to extreme weightsaving (which often lessens the functionality of a bike) have chosen my idea of an electric drivetrain to lament the 'unnecessary complexity that doesn't offer any benefit' of modern cycling.

[ultimobici]

There is a certain irony though that you as a user on a messageboard dedicated to extreme weightsaving (which often lessens the functionality of a bike) have chosen my idea of an electric drivetrain to lament the 'unnecessary complexity that doesn't offer any benefit' of modern cycling.

While I do like a light bike, I also draw the line at weight saving that impairs the functionality of the bike. I've had Extralite and Easton cranks but quickly ditched them in favour of the groupset cranks. Less faff and the shifting is markedly better. But I can also see how tech benefits a rider. Di2 allows shifting that is unaffected by weather, fatigue or cable "stretch". It adjusts to the specific chainring/sprocket combination you're in to remove rub. The last one doesn't add any weight because it's a software feature. What you're suggesting would need extra processing power, necessitating a heavier battery for starters. Synchro & semi synchro shifting are fat from ideal, so even riders with limited experience eschew them. Only on a TT bike does it make any sense. The variables at play are far too many for it to work to the rider's advantage. It's the kind of feature that works on a utility e-bike because weight is not a factor. On a road bike it's going to be too heavy and is unlikely to help the rider, but rather hinder them.

[misteryellow]

There is a certain irony though that you as a user on a messageboard dedicated to extreme weightsaving (which often lessens the functionality of a bike) have chosen my idea of an electric drivetrain to lament the 'unnecessary complexity that doesn't offer any benefit' of modern cycling.

While I do like a light bike, I also draw the line at weight saving that impairs the functionality of the bike. I've had Extralite and Easton cranks but quickly ditched them in favour of the groupset cranks. Less faff and the shifting is markedly better. But I can also see how tech benefits a rider. Di2 allows shifting that is unaffected by weather, fatigue or cable "stretch". It adjusts to the specific chainring/sprocket combination you're in to remove rub. The last one doesn't add any weight because it's a software feature. What you're suggesting would need extra processing power, necessitating a heavier battery for starters. Synchro & semi synchro shifting are fat from ideal, so even riders with limited experience eschew them. Only on a TT bike does it make any sense. The variables at play are far too many for it to work to the rider's advantage. It's the kind of feature that works on a utility e-bike because weight is not a factor. On a road bike it's going to be too heavy and is unlikely to help the rider, but rather hinder them.

I'm not sure about the extra power consumption though. The extra added weight would also be comparably low to the weight added by discs. Consumers apparently have no issue with a 500 gram weight penalty for discs if they see true benefit. As far as the variables go, that's why I am focused on leisurely rides. Under such conditions the variables could be more easily controlled. The amount of variables shifting wise is generally already limited. How many gears do people actually use? I think it's a matter of time before we will see automatic shifting. Backpacking bikes could also benefit.

[Nickldn]

The reason they went for ebikes is most likely two fold: they already have a powermeter and the competition has autoshifting bikes, such as the Enviolo system. This concept can also be replicated on road bikes, using a powermeter and possibly a gps. Of course autoshifting would be very different on an ebike. For instance, sometimes you are standing up and want to put power down and you don't want to shift under such load. But it can be great for recovery rides where your speed and power are limited. The system could also learn from your shifting habits and adapt to your riding style. You could have modes such as 'recovery mode', 'leisurely mode' or 'city mode' to help with the constant shifting at stoplights.

How long have you been away from the golf course? Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.

I went golfing last week. I agree with your statement about the lack of hand holding & arse wiping, though I would rephrase it to simplicity. I ride a rimbrake bike with mechanical gears and see no benefit to electronic shifting. However, if the industry does decide to go electronic I'd like to see it used to its full potential. The idea of automatic shifting does not add any mechanical or electronic complexity to existing technology, it merely synthesises existing technology and uses software to optimise it. I would also like to add that the argument that it doesn't offer 'any real benefit' is a limited one. Autoshifting could enable disabled people to ride a road bike or help elderly people with arthrosis to continue riding. I must say I like your comment because it proves I'm at the tip of the spear when it comes to technology. There is a certain irony though that you as a user on a messageboard dedicated to extreme weightsaving (which often lessens the functionality of a bike) have chosen my idea of an electric drivetrain to lament the 'unnecessary complexity that doesn't offer any benefit' of modern cycling.

Once a computer becomes part of a certain application it starts to be possible to argue that more options, such as auto shifting, represent a potential benefit to users. The IT and auto industries are experts at this and have developed a huge range of automation, with many options. If you get into a recant AMG road car you'll find a huge range of adjustability. But the vast majority of it does little to enhance the day to day driving experience for the vast majority of customers.

I would argue it's much the same with more road bike drivetrain automation. The manufacturers would need to invest in writing software, testing maintenance, but how many roadies would be willing to use it? Yes, perhaps there are some niche use cases, but I doubt it would expand the road bike market, or be of any benefit to the vast majority of roadies.

So perhaps better for manufacturers to focus on delivering what their customers need (and will pay more for), rather than developing additional complexity no one is really looking for. I would welcome innovation in truly useful areas, like cheap and light ABS for instance.

[flmo]

Hi, quick question on chainring compatibility:

https://rotorbike.com/catalog/default/r ... -aero.html
Will these lead to a significant downgrade in shifting performance?
I understand, Rotor designed it based on 11-speed. Reason for this choice is mainly optics for me (don't like the Shimano look).

I saw that this topic came up a couple of times arleady, but the verdict was not very clear to me.

[sealucky]

Hey,
Just switched from Dura ace 11-30 cassette to Ultegra 11-34 on my Dura ace 9200 groupset and can't get rid of slight but constant clicking on 52-21 (its the smallest sprocket in stack of 5 sprockets) gear, this 21 sprocket is some kind of mystery for me - shifting itself is perfect through the whole cassette, but this clicking is killing me. Microaddjustments don't work: or I have bad shifting or I have clicking, looks like there is not enough space between 21 sproket and 19.
I see in Shimano documentation that 11-30 and 11-34 cassettes have different configuration.
Is anyone faced the same problem?

[sealucky]

Maybe I should make some changes through E-Tube App, to tell the rear derailleur that now he works with different cassette

[BdaGhisallo]

Is the SM-PCE2 of any use for 9250 and 8150 DI2 setups? Or is everything handled through the app for the 12sp DI2 components?