Dura-Ace R9200

[wheelsONfire]

I just checked the prices for new DA, absurd!

Accounting for inflation they're basically the same as DA9100

I don't attempt to discuss inflation. I just see that price for shifting according to Shimano has skyrocketed.
Anyway, I also got another explanation from a dealer....

[mgrl]

I don't attempt to discuss inflation. I just see that price for shifting according to Shimano has skyrocketed.

It hasn't, though. The RRP is very similar, it's just previously you never bought things at RRP.

(Merlin has 9170's RRP at £3499 and SigmaSports has 9270's RRP at £3513, to compare like with like)

[BigBoyND]

I find it more interesting that stock bikes are now more expensive than if bought by components where one can pick exactly what it wants.

This honestly blows my mind. $12-15k for a DA/Red level bike that doesn't have my preferred saddle, crank length, wheel depth/model, stem length, bar width, cassette size, tire size/model, bar tape, etc. At best it has my preffered groupset and 50% of the afformentioned parts. Yet they basically give you all that stuff at retail price...

Frame prices these days are stupid high, and yet they are still a better value than buying a complete build.

[BigBoyND]

(and I'd still prefer living in a world where the integrated cockpit fashion never happened, but not because I consider the lack of bar angle creativity a major loss)

Why would you prefer to live in a world with fewer options? Standard stems and bars are still offered by bike brands and aftermarket companies. Even integrated top-spec bikes have the option to get a stem that allows for standard bars while maintaining internal cable routing (Pinarello, Cannondale, Specialized, BMC, etc etc.)

[wheelsONfire]

I don't attempt to discuss inflation. I just see that price for shifting according to Shimano has skyrocketed.

It hasn't, though. The RRP is very similar, it's just previously you never bought things at RRP.

merlin.png

(Merlin has 9170's RRP at £3499 and SigmaSports has 9270's RRP at £3513, to compare like with like)

I don't disagree, but on the other hand RRP seems to be a bit fluctuating when looking at prices.
At times it seems as RRP is set high and no-one ever buys at the price.
I think the Corona has made a shift at cycling. More people has started to look at bikes, bikes sell more and components to. So i guess prices has went up.
I hear some dealers says they're so full of work that they can't manage.

[wheelsONfire]

I find it more interesting that stock bikes are now more expensive than if bought by components where one can pick exactly what it wants.

This honestly blows my mind. $12-15k for a DA/Red level bike that doesn't have my preferred saddle, crank length, wheel depth/model, stem length, bar width, cassette size, tire size/model, bar tape, etc. At best it has my preffered groupset and 50% of the afformentioned parts. Yet they basically give you all that stuff at retail price...

Frame prices these days are stupid high, and yet they are still a better value than buying a complete build.

Doesn't that tell us anything, or perhaps everything? You and i (and all of us bike nerds) see what is wrong, so if this is supposed to work, there has to be some who simply doesn't, who else would pay these prices?

[BigBoyND]

I live in an area where Dogmas, S-works, and Madones are common and usually 100% stock. Certainly there is a contingency of people who don't sweat the details and just buy the best off-the-shelf bikes. But I certainly would never make that choice for myself. I'm building a DA9200 Venge with top-spec everything and it will cost me thousands less than their DA/Red Tarmac options.

[usr]

(and I'd still prefer living in a world where the integrated cockpit fashion never happened, but not because I consider the lack of bar angle creativity a major loss)

Why would you prefer to live in a world with fewer options? Standard stems and bars are still offered by bike brands and aftermarket companies.

Because I know that I'm not immune to fashion. If I was, I'd ride Tiagra at best. Or more likely: not at all. Because it's all part of one indecipherable feedback loop. The fitness and competition, the landscape enjoyment, the tech geekery, the camaraderie, the consumerism: none of them would keep me riding on its own, but each one intensifies all the others in some way and together, well, here I am.

Even integrated top-spec bikes have the option to get a stem that allows for standard bars while maintaining internal cable routing (Pinarello, Cannondale, Specialized, BMC, etc etc.)

And others don't, like Canyon's gen 3 Aeroad and that Grail abomination, that Simplon twin stem, I'm sure those are not the only ones. Look where round seatposts have gone. Would the sport be any less attractive had D-shape seatposts never happened?

[pmprego]

(and I'd still prefer living in a world where the integrated cockpit fashion never happened, but not because I consider the lack of bar angle creativity a major loss)

Why would you prefer to live in a world with fewer options? Standard stems and bars are still offered by bike brands and aftermarket companies. Even integrated top-spec bikes have the option to get a stem that allows for standard bars while maintaining internal cable routing (Pinarello, Cannondale, Specialized, BMC, etc etc.)

But in some of those you are stuck with the stem they offer. Would you like a different stem angle or something and one is screwed (as I was with my addict rc and its proprietary headset spacer).

[wheelsONfire]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again. What would evolve from that talking ideals and fashion?
Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?
Isn't that completely crazy as these parts may get impossible to buy in a few years.
Is it that most don't even think like this at all, they just focus on what is on "the plate" ?
Is it consumerism that has taken over peoples minds, use, throw away buy new that rules?

[pmprego]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again.
(1) What would evolve from that talking ideals and fashion?
(2) Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?
(3) Isn't that completely crazy as these parts may get impossible to buy in a few years.
(4) Is it that most don't even think like this at all, they just focus on what is on "the plate" ?
(5) Is it consumerism that has taken over peoples minds, use, throw away buy new that rules?

It's also inexperience - not knowing better (and I speak for myself). This is even more pronnounced after covid where so many new people seem to have joined the sport.

I felt for the integrated cockpit hidden cables BS "oh it looks so nice" (which on top had several proprietary parts). I have now moved away from the integrated cockpit but have to deal with the hidden cables but never again. "The problem is not making a mistake but rather not learning from them"

My feeling is that the general move it is all about looks (1) and "i'll just buy a new one" (5).

[wheelsONfire]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again.
(1) What would evolve from that talking ideals and fashion?
(2) Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?
(3) Isn't that completely crazy as these parts may get impossible to buy in a few years.
(4) Is it that most don't even think like this at all, they just focus on what is on "the plate" ?
(5) Is it consumerism that has taken over peoples minds, use, throw away buy new that rules?

It's also inexperience - not knowing better (and I speak for myself). This is even more pronnounced after covid where so many new people seem to have joined the sport.

I felt for the integrated cockpit hidden cables BS "oh it looks so nice" (which on top had several proprietary parts). I have now moved away from the integrated cockpit but have to deal with the hidden cables but never again. "The problem is not making a mistake but rather not learning from them"

My feeling is that the general move it is all about looks (1) and "i'll just buy a new one" (5).

That's what a dealer told me is nr 1 when people actually see the bikes for real. Looks, they don't put anything over that (mostly).
Also, consumerism is our modern disease. We have forgot or don't even know the old ways of treating stuff we buy.
I think it shows in how things are manufactured and how the process of this is dealt with.
Srams Etap is perhaps an üver proof of this. It's terrible that we have evolved in to this pityful behaviour.
I tend to ask alot and constantly trying to understand different peoples behaviour and the why behind them.
Perhaps it's seen on how i behave on this forum? Anyway, sorry for getting away from the thread!

[pmprego]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again.
(1) What would evolve from that talking ideals and fashion?
(2) Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?
(3) Isn't that completely crazy as these parts may get impossible to buy in a few years.
(4) Is it that most don't even think like this at all, they just focus on what is on "the plate" ?
(5) Is it consumerism that has taken over peoples minds, use, throw away buy new that rules?

It's also inexperience - not knowing better (and I speak for myself). This is even more pronnounced after covid where so many new people seem to have joined the sport.

I felt for the integrated cockpit hidden cables BS "oh it looks so nice" (which on top had several proprietary parts). I have now moved away from the integrated cockpit but have to deal with the hidden cables but never again. "The problem is not making a mistake but rather not learning from them"

My feeling is that the general move it is all about looks (1) and "i'll just buy a new one" (5).

That's what a dealer told me is nr 1 when people actually see the bikes for real. Looks, they don't put anything over that (mostly).
Also, consumerism is our modern disease. We have forgot or don't even know the old ways of treating stuff we buy.
I think it shows in how things are manufactured and how the process of this is dealt with.
Srams Etap is perhaps an üver proof of this. It's terrible that we have evolved in to this pityful behaviour.
I tend to ask alot and constantly trying to understand different peoples behaviour and the why behind them.
Perhaps it's seen on how i behave on this forum? Anyway, sorry for getting away from the thread!

Why sram etap particularly? I'm asking because I have it and want to be prepared for some future difficulties.

[Karvalo]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again.

Let's say it won't, because it won't.

People like clean lines, and hidden cables are cleaner. There was the same "what's the point" reaction to internal frame routing for cables when that came along but you never see a mass market bike with full external routing anymore, and haven't done for quite some time. Downtube cable stops aren't coming back, and non-integrated cable routing on race bikes isn't coming back.

You even got it from the MTB market a while back when 2x drivetrains, dropper posts and fork/shock remotes were all being used - people would say 'I like that bike but it just has too many cables.' Less cables is good, and no cables is the ultimate expression of that.

Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?

Mostly they dont think too much about what comes along with that. Honestly, it boggles my mind how many people with £10k bikes don't even know which order to do up a topcap and stem bolts, let alone have any interest in changing their own headset bearings or setting their own cockpit position. For other people it's just somewhere else in the order of priorities.

One thing it's good for is artisan framebuilders. With social media making it so much easier to put your work out there, and most major brands not offering 'normal' bikes anymore I think it's becoming a new golden age for independent fabricators.

[wheelsONfire]

Let's say in due time a few big names would suddenly push hard (and pro riders used these on big races) for light weight and none integrated cables and bar/ stem suddenly became modern again.

Let's say it won't, because it won't.

People like clean lines, and hidden cables are cleaner. There was the same "what's the point" reaction to internal frame routing for cables when that came along but you never see a mass market bike with full external routing anymore, and haven't done for quite some time. Downtube cable stops aren't coming back, and non-integrated cable routing on race bikes isn't coming back.

You even got it from the MTB market a while back when 2x drivetrains, dropper posts and fork/shock remotes were all being used - people would say 'I like that bike but it just has too many cables.' Less cables is good, and no cables is the ultimate expression of that.

Why do people generally seem to like (or atleast accept without question) proprietary components?

Mostly they dont think too much about what comes along with that. Honestly, it boggles my mind how many people with £10k bikes don't even know which order to do up a topcap and stem bolts, let alone have any interest in changing their own headset bearings or setting their own cockpit position. For other people it's just somewhere else in the order of priorities.

One thing it's good for is artisan framebuilders. With social media making it so much easier to put your work out there, and most major brands not offering 'normal' bikes anymore I think it's becoming a new golden age for independent fabricators.

Yes, there are very few frames with cables exposed. There still are a few of them, but my guess is you're right. But it's mostly a visual thing.

I guess i must agree to this point talking independent fabricators.

So simply put, i think of the service and maintenance logic over the visual.
The modern human is more about fiddling with your phone and doing things yourself is out the door it seems...